Younger Men, Butterflies & Why Mr. Big Keeps You Guessing — Episode 4 with Dr. Nicole Nasr, Therapist

About This Episode

In episode four of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV sits down with therapist and entrepreneur Dr. Nicole Nasr to unpack Sex and the City's "The Valley of the Twenty-Something Guys." They explore why we over-read signs from people we like, what butterflies in your stomach actually mean physiologically, the psychology behind age gap relationships, and why Charlotte already knew her answer before she even asked the question.

What We Cover

• Why reading "signs" from someone you like can be more about projection than reality

• Butterflies in your stomach: excitement, intuition, or a stress response you're misreading?

• Age gap relationships — what going for older or younger partners really says about your attachment history

• Mr. Big's emotional unavailability: mature strategy or just not that into her?

• The psychology of using a younger person as a "designer drug" after rejection

• Why Miranda links sex to respect — and what that reveals about her worldview

• Charlotte's big three (money, looks, manners) and the immaturity hiding behind her checklist

• How to navigate introducing something new into your sexual relationship — the pesto analogy

About Our Guest

Dr. Nicole Nasr is a therapist with over seven years of private practice experience, working primarily with ambitious adults navigating high-pressure careers alongside their personal lives. She is also the founder of Journey, a therapist matchmaking platform designed to pair clients with the right practitioner based on compatibility — not just proximity. Find out more at Journey's platform and follow her work online.

Transcript

Hello, guys, and happy Tuesday. I am so excited to bring this week's episode to you. I am bringing to you Dr.

Nicole Nasr. She is an amazing therapist and also an entrepreneur that is launching her own platform for a therapist called Journey. And she'll tell you more about it, but this episode is so good.

This is the first time that I am recording with a therapist in person. This was recorded on a Saturday morning in Nicole's flat, and you can hear my dog Rabbit shaking in the background. It was a completely different experience and I think it shows.

But as per usual, I'm super keen to hear what you guys are thinking of the podcast so far.

You can do this by leaving a comment on the podcast wherever you listen to this, or if you want something a bit more direct, you can DM me on the podcast Instagram page at WeFoundTherapyPod. I'll leave you to listen to the episode now.

I hope you guys love it as much as I did. I love you guys. I'll see you on the other side.

Bye. Hello, everybody. I'm here today with Dr.

Nicole Nasr. Nicole is the founder of Journey. She has over seven years experience with private practice.

Most of her clients are very ambitious adults. We both live in London, so she sees a lot of people with very high-profile careers that also want to expand their ambitions beyond their professional careers and do some work on themselves.

Welcome, Nicole.

Thank you, Isa. Thank you so much for having me.

Today, we're discussing The Valley of the 20-something-year-olds, Season 1, Episode 4 of Sex and the City. In this episode, Samantha and Carrie both engage with 20-something-year-old guys who are very fun. They describe them as the new designer drug.

You know, we know the girls are in their 30s. Samantha might be in her 40s for all we know. Carrie is also starting to hang out more and more with Big.

Miranda is still hanging out with Skipper, who she dislikes more every episode. And Charlotte is dating somebody new. My first question to you, Nicole, is that as we see at the beginning of the episode, we're introduced with Carrie and Mr.

Big running into each other all over New York. Eventually, they decide to bump into each other on purpose. We can get the impression that Mr.

Big finally asked Carrie out for a thing. And Carrie is, I guess, a bit upset about the fact that he didn't call it a date. So I have two questions for you here.

What do you think, as sometimes girls, we tend to be a bit, you know, astrological, magical?

We think there is kismet, the universe is bringing us together, we are meant to be, and we tend to put all the universe's pressure onto this new guy and this new relationship that he barely knows.

So what do you think about maybe us reading too much into things and then putting that pressure on something that still hasn't become anything? That's question number one. And question number two, do you think that Mr.

Bigg was probably given already a signal that he's not that emotionally available to Carrie by downplaying their meetup?

Let me start with question number two, since it's just here.

We know at this point he's gone through his first divorce, and the guy is just having a good time, and I think he had a great connection with someone that he met, and he's just going with it without...

And I would actually say that a lot of people who, and this is just in general, a lot of people who have already done the marriage thing, that especially that it's been not that great, whenever they come back on the market, there's generally this

desire most of the time to take things a lot slower. It's almost like you got it out of your system and you know what it's like.

So people just feel sometimes the need to like slow things down, to enjoy some of the things that, you know, they didn't really get to maybe experience the first time.

So in my professional opinion, what I also see with my clients is that a lot of the time, men and women actually that have already done the whole marriage thing at least once or very long relationship, will take time before labeling certain things

exactly for that purpose, for people not to jump to certain conclusions faster than what they really want. So I think calling it obviously like a thing, and I think the first time they didn't even call it a thing, it was just like, let's meet up

somewhere, but on purpose. That is definitely on purpose for that end goal of just, you know, let's, this is a casual thing, and I really need it to remain a casual thing. So I think him also not calling it like that, it's his own awareness of...

And managing expectations, maybe?

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. However, you can tell that, like, he does like her, you know, like there is a bit of a thing happening between them.

This was for question number two. Question number one, there's something about when you say, like, do we read a bit too much into the sign?

Personally, I love reading into signs because I personally, I don't necessarily believe that much in coincidences.

I think everybody comes in your life, even, you know, journey with my company, the logo is basically two lines that are separate and then they connect and then they disconnect at some point and then everybody goes their own way because that's really

what happens a lot of the time with the people in our lives. Very rarely do you have people that just like stick for forever.

So for them, for her to be reading a little bit into the signs, I mean, yeah, if you think also about it, let's imagine that, yeah, it is 100% accurate. It's New York City.

For you to be bumping into someone over and over and over again, you have to read a little bit into the signs. When you decide to abide by them, it gives you a bit of this comfort from the perspective of like, OK, so this is not completely random.

There's something for me here to explore. And she does that, like, I think she just, you know, completely jumps, she jumps into it and I love that. Yeah.

And she's happy about it.

I just I think sometimes I, for instance, I'm torn between being thrown into something that makes me feel butterflies in my stomach, like I think Carrie is, because I think that's wonderful. And holding yourself back from giving too much too soon.

I think it's great that you believe in signs. I also believe in the universe. I do think that is, I would read it the same way that Carrie is.

So what would be some good advice to maybe keep yourself grounded and let somebody feel the space?

The thing with signs is, I think it's a great thing to pay attention to them. The problem happens in the interpretation of the sign. So a lot of people will go like, I've seen this person, oh my God, we're meant to be together.

But there's like a notion between, there's maybe something to explore right there, there's something for me to take from this, maybe a lesson, maybe an experience, maybe through this person I'm going to meet someone else.

But the problem with the signs is just the interpretation of them.

And a lot of people, I think, are quick to create interpretations that actually have absolutely nothing to do with the actual event or the actual lesson or thing that you're supposed to take from this.

So one thing that I would say is whenever these kinds of signs happen, when you said, you don't necessarily jump at it arrogant enough thinking that you know what this is. You don't know what this is.

All you know is just it's a sign that there's something to explore with this person. But again, the problem is you have already an expectation of what this is supposed to lead up to. Then you're going in with an agenda, right?

And then the person in front of you might have a completely different agenda. And this is where the incoherence between your experience and their experience starts happening.

When in your mind it's like, but we bumped into each other so many times, we have a great connection. You start adding up certain variables and in your mind you're like, well, this is supposed to lead up to this. But who told you?

It's like when I say sometimes we can be arrogant enough, it's like we think that we know what's to come.

And when you mentioned, by the way, the butterflies in the stomach, I think it's an idea that has been so romanticized about the need of having butterfly in the stomach. And I'll just say this about the butterflies in the stomach.

We've associated it with good experiences because it's something that we feel as well with people that we have a great connection to.

But if you really think about the physiological aspect of butterflies in the stomach, it's also not to be confused with intuition and something bringing you closer to someone. Because butterfly in the stomach is also a sign of very big stress.

And a lot of time when something also feels wrong or feels too much, for whatever reason, can come in the form of butterfly in the stomach.

Okay. So my conclusion is stick to the facts. If you're dating somebody that maybe you think is meant to be, like stay in the now, don't project.

And then the second thing is also to not confuse something that you may feel physically in your body. It could be both your intuition telling you danger or a strong connection. So butterflies in the stomach are not...

Not always.

If they're small, if they're like, if it's excitement, it's like you have to make the difference between excitement and something that is toxic and we're sometimes attracted to that, right?

When it's too much, when it's the drama, when it's like someone that is a bit, you know, the bad, bad boy kind of like figure. And of course they'll give you that because they're giving you sense of insecurity.

They're giving you a sense that like, I'm unavailable. So if I'm making time for you, you're special.

So it's almost like being on a cliff. And obviously you have that vertigo.

Yeah.

So, okay, interesting. In the next scene, we go to the big opening of this restaurant that Samantha's PR company is managing. And all the girls are there.

Miranda's bringing Skipper as her date. Charlotte has found her new boyfriend, which has her big threes, which is looks, manners and money. And Carrie is meeting Mr.

Big. And there are several things here that I think are worth talking about. What do you think about Charlotte's big threes?

I think maybe start by that one, because that one's easy.

It's repeated. It's money.

Money, manners and looks. They're not bad threes.

They're not bad, but they're not the only threes that matters, right? I mean, yeah, also, like, if you think about it, it's also very her. It's like what matters to her, right?

And none of these things are bad. But again, she approaches it in a way that like, that's all that almost matters. And that for me is such a sign of like immaturity, like love immaturity, that you think that if you have those three, that it's good.

Yeah.

And I think we see that with Charlotte, first choice for a husband, that I think she's enamored with this, this Stetford wife, white picket fence, cookie cutter life. And as long as it looks good from the outside, is what she wants.

Yeah. But then you see her evolution, right? And then you see who she ends up marrying.

That for me was the biggest lesson of she finally got it.

Yeah.

But that's not what really matters.

No, I think she only sticks to money out of those three with her second marriage. Okay.

And then Miranda's with Skipper, and she actually calls it a fuck thing with Skipper, because Charlotte is like, I don't understand why you keep hanging out with this man.

Do you think that Miranda has been as outspoken and clear about setting Skipper's expectations, and Skipper is just a hopeless romantic that thinks he's going to change her?

Or do you think that Miranda's being a bit self-serving with this specific relationship?

Definitely self-serving, but I think unconsciously she doesn't realize that she actually likes him to some extent. And obviously Charlotte is not going to understand it, because he probably has none of the big trees. So this is not...

And then also when your friends don't really understand it, it's very difficult when you're not fully convinced with it, and then people around you don't understand it. It's very easy to just diminish it.

But I generally think that Miranda likes something of him other than the sex. And also, if the sex is good, it's probably because there's a good connection somewhere happening.

And I think she really wants to deny that, because there's just no future. And then we see it later, right? When she sees him with another woman, and then obviously suddenly something becomes more attractive about him.

It's the fact that someone else wanted something of him. And she then also wanted those same things of him. So there is something there, but she's just very much blocking it.

It's like she refuses to even acknowledge that there can be something there.

Right. I have thoughts about that, because this is a good segue into, we go inside of the restaurant, and Samantha is sleeping with the chef of this restaurant, John, no age, no last name. We also get introduced to Sam.

I'm going to call him Sam No Tits, because I normally call Samantha Sam. So Sam No Tits, they're both in their 20s, and Carrie's freaking out about seeing Mr. Big.

She calls her answering machine, and makes Miranda, who graduated first in her litigation class from Harvard, listen to the voicemail, asking her, what do you think? Like, is he meeting me? Is he not meeting me?

And is he not meeting me for a date thing, or for a drink thing? What do you think? And she has no idea.

I love how invested Miranda is. And she's like, yes, I'm going to be here for all your obsession about this guy and this answering machine voicemail. What do you think about Carrie being so obsessed about reading into every single little thing?

Is she trying to project because he is giving her very little information, or is just that she's decided that she is all in, and therefore everything he does, little or no little information means a lot to her.

By the way, I don't know if you remember, but that scene started with her saying, he's not coming, he's not coming. So she drew a conclusion.

And then a couple of minutes later, we realized that, no, he said that he was coming, just he was coming later.

She said something like, something came up.

He's not meeting me. He's not coming. Something came up for him.

But then see if he's like ditching me on a date level or something like that. But just from that one sentence, you realize that she jumped into conclusion. She, it's like, she hears what she wants to hear, right?

Yeah.

And then the reason that she's so invested, it's because, well, first of all, she really likes him.

So any message that she gets is like a massive clue, right? And then there's like a lot of space for interpretation and space for reflection.

Now, also the nature of her job, I mean, I really go into the psyche of the episode, but the nature of her job forces her to be very reflective and to be very inquisitive about everything that she sees.

If you even think about like all these like blog entry, I mean, column or everything that she has to write, I mean, she writes during the whole series. It's always about that. It's always about taking small clues and then writing.

Making the puzzle.

Exactly.

Making it a puzzle, going, you know, into like this very insightful quest into what it means and all. So this is her like, that's her status quo.

And whoever is going to be friends with her, will have to also engage on that level with her because that's how she connects with the world around her. Like that's her, for me anyway, the way that I see it is that that's her way of living.

Like Carrie without her curiosity and without going out and trying things and trying, you know, to even getting her heart broken and all, like what content does she really have? So she's like her own experiment into her bigger experiment.

And I find this so fascinating, how like she's always willing to, I mean, again, do we have real Carries in real life? I don't know, because it's very emotionally up and down, but like it's a lot, right? But that's like her life.

She writes about what she experiences. So her going into so much details and all, like that's just part of her nature. She has to do these kind of things.

Now the interpretation that she does are poor, but on one hand, it's because she's very focused on the me, me, me experience, which I think we see eventually as well, but also she has very little information. So anything that he gives her is like...

She will squeeze for meaning as long as she can.

As long as she can.

This brings me to my other question that is related to what you mentioned about Miranda fancying, skipper more when he's with somebody else, because then Carrie decides, you know what, I'm still going to have a good time.

I'm in this very happening place. She decides to start flirting with Sam, no tits, and Big walks in as Carrie is holding this 20-something-year-old Sam's tongue. And my question is, do you think that's a good look or a bad look for Carrie?

Because we know some women love to make another man jealous.

And I think now that we have access to things like social media, Instagram, Snapchat, whatever you want to call it, there's a lot of phishing that happens for somebody to see, hey, somebody else wants me or I can be with somebody else.

So do you think that that was a good look for Carrie? And what would you think about a man or a woman like Miranda that wants someone more when they think they cannot have them?

And that seemed, what was so interesting, by the way, was that he didn't care, like he...

It did seem like he did not care. He didn't blink twice.

He didn't blink twice. It didn't make him want to stay longer or sacrifice on his other plan or tell her to come with him or he generally didn't care.

Yeah, he actually mentions it. He's like, and here you are holding somebody's tongue.

Yeah, and then they had like chat for like not even a minute because now he has to tell her that like he can't stay longer and then he has to leave. And then he just leaves.

And that for me was like such a good, mature response of him that like I know it's like, do you see what I mean? It's like, I'm not falling for this. And he wasn't really triggered by it.

And I think he did well because had he done that, then again, she would have taken that information, run with it and like did something about it. So the fact that he really didn't blink twice for me is quite big.

But in life, like with social media and all, we will do anything to get someone's attention. That's just another thing that we're willing to do.

Yeah. And I think there's that rush of getting immediate reactions. Okay, that's very interesting.

I love how you're putting Mr. Big in a good light, which I think, you know, growing up, he was always romanticized, but now he's become a problematic figure. But I love that you're finding a lot of positives in his story.

And in those scenes, yeah, because I'm just like, he's doing his thing.

He's, you know, again, he's a divorced man in his 40s in New York City, doesn't have kids. He's like, he's having a good time.

And then he happens to bump into this woman who's like all about the relationships, all about the connection, all about the analysis. And he finds her intriguing. But it's like it's a very gradual thing.

Yeah, I think it's a very gradual thing. And that for me anyway, shows like some sort of maturity, you know, it's not...

No, I agree. I agree. Then on the other side of this, I think Carrie doesn't show that much maturity.

I don't know how you feel about this. But then after he leaves, I think Carrie is just a bit let down. And sometimes when you feel let down by something that you've decided that you're going to care so much about, you do want to compensate.

And she decides to compensate by going with John Noh and Sam Noh Tits and Samantha to a 20-something year old club. And she is being silly, being flirty, really enjoying herself. You can see that she does not care that much about this guy.

Like it's just something that it's fun and it's happening. They start making out. What do you think about her reaction to this?

Do you think that it shows a bit her immaturity and insecurities? And my other question that I think might be a bigger one, what do you think about couples where there is a big age gap?

Okay. Okay. Two very different questions.

Okay. For the first one, I think, I don't think it shows that much immaturity in the sense that she's mirroring a bit Big's way of seeing her.

It's like Big has this thing where he has his life, and then Carrie happened to enter his life at some point, but he hasn't stopped his life for her. And what it feels like is that she's done exactly the same thing.

He's like the main thing, the constant, but then she won't stop her life for him. So when he leaves, it's not that she goes to Samantha and Miranda and he's like, he came, he left.

I know that probably if this was me, I would have made a scene about the fact that he came, he left, he didn't ask me, do you see what I mean? It's easy to get into that. And he didn't bite his eyes.

She did exactly the same. She's like, okay, well, he left. All right, let's go and have a good time with whoever I am with in that moment.

So that for me is also a sign of maturity in the sense that she didn't stop her life because of that. And then you also see it the next day. Right.

He asked her out for a drink thing.

Yes.

And then she goes in. And I remember watching the scene yesterday. I was just like, well done her, you know, because she came to that drink knowing that it was just going to be her and both of them.

And then that friend shows up.

Yes.

And she's like, that guy is not taking me seriously. And you know what? I really want to spend time with him, but I'm not that desperate to spend time with him.

I love that.

And I think...

Yeah, that was very good.

I think you asked if there were caries in this world. I do think I am a carie because I was reading into it. And I was like, okay, he keeps asking her out, but not really on a date date.

I think he keeps leaving Easter eggs about, hey, I am not that serious about this. I don't have that much invested into this because I don't mind prioritizing something over our dinner or thing that he initially bailed on.

And then somebody called him crying and he brings him with him when he knows that he's already had one strike.

So I thought, okay, are you literally just the more you see this girl maybe be a bit into you, the more you're going to be like Easter egg not available, Easter egg not available or Easter egg not that invested.

He is not taking it that seriously, definitely. But also one could argue like, why would he? She's just, she's another woman that he met probably along the way that he had a connection with.

And yeah, like they're trying it out. Again, if you really want to think about like universe and signs, I mean, this is really like stepping out of it.

But maybe these are all signs that he's not ready for something, that if it was more forced, that probably, it wouldn't have worked out the way that it did. Clearly, the guy is like, he's one step in, but like 10 steps out.

Which again, I think she reads correctly. Again, for me, that scene where she's like, you know what, you stay with him, have a boys' night, drinks on me. I mean, at the end, she's like, absolutely, you can tell that she's angry.

It's like, but just that move of like, standing up for her own self and be like, no, I deserve to have like a one-on-one date. And in the episode, it shifts, because even at the end, she wants him to chase her and she got it.

She's like, no, okay, enough. This is not an equal thing anymore. You want me, you're going to have to chase.

And he does that. Eventually, we know that he does that.

OK, so I'm going to bring you back to my other question that was a big one. We know Mr. Big is in his 40s, Carrie's in her 30s.

There's this 20-something year old guys. Do you have, as a therapist, any views on maybe couples where there's a big age gap? And does it say anything about maybe a woman going after older men?

Is that automatically daddy issues? A woman going after a younger man, even if she's still in her 30s? Does that mean immaturity?

Like, do you see any, and I know you guys don't like to generalize, but do you see any big patterns that tend to come with those age gaps?

Okay, if we talk about patterns, yeah, we can definitely say that there are some, because what you go for is how it feels to be with this person.

And if what it feels to be with this person is security, some sort of, you know, like, stability, it feels like you're being looked after, it feels like that, it's because you are after those feelings.

Now, my big question, especially as a therapist, is why are you after those feelings? Were you missing them somewhere in your childhood, especially in your childhood, that is making you go and seek them?

Now, you can, and you know, for a lot of these people, these kind of feelings, this is by the way a pattern that usually starts when you're younger. So even when you're like 14, 15, 16, you're attracted towards men that provide these kind of things.

We're talking about men and women, just for this sake. But this is something, it's not that you're suddenly 28, and you're like, okay, I'm going to go with someone that is like 45 for those reasons.

No, it's that you look for those feelings in all of your relationships. And sometimes you might try them out with someone your age, and you're like, but I'm not getting that.

And then through that like experiment, you realize that way, I get more of these feelings that are very important for me, for X reason, with men that are a bit older.

So automatically, your whole system becomes a lot more attracted to that, because that's something that you missed somewhere along the way. Obviously, this is a massive overgeneralization. But this is the pattern.

And when you go for younger, with younger, it's a little bit different, because you can be with younger people that feel the same age as you. And that's different. Do you see what I mean?

I am yet to see someone who marries someone younger, because they're just so cool and immature, and it's up and down. Do you see what I mean? A lot of the time, when you see this, it's because that person...

The younger one is very mature.

Is very mature, most of the time.

Do you think, though, that in your 20s, you're still growing as mature as you can be?

There's a higher chance that you might grow apart from your partner, because there's a lot more journey to be wink-wink to your company.

I'll tell you what. I think it depends why they are so mature at 20. So I'll give you two examples.

You can be mature at 20, because unfortunately, you had to be, because you come from a household where the parents were not mature enough. You had to grow up a lot faster. You had to take care of the parents.

So that for me is very sad if someone is so mature in their 20s because of those reasons.

Yeah.

Because that for me means that they skipped a very important part of their life where they had to be taken care of, and they understood that no one is ever going to take care of me, so I have to step in.

And that usually, I mean, again, massive overgeneralization, but a lot of the time this ends in the person burning out at some point. I mean, what they call, you know, like midlife crisis or anything like that.

You have a lot of those people that, you know, just did everything right from a very young age. We're always correct. We're always...

And that for me is a bit scary, you know? If someone is that mature for those reasons, I'm like, this is dangerous territory. It's like, there's a lot that you're carrying.

They'll probably come to a point where there's maybe resentment or something for missing out.

Exactly.

And then, you know, we... I mean, all of us, we tend to project, then you can start projecting on this. It can be very messy.

Now, you naturally have people that have had very stable, beautiful childhood where, you know, parents used to take care of them. But just intrinsically, they're very mature. They like things and they're attracted to things that...

They just come with like a sort of wisdom at a very young age. Now, my explanation of it, again, this is a very spiritual explanation. I do believe a lot in like, you have one soul and many bodies.

Yeah, so past lives and maybe...

Exactly, you know, so you just sometimes you...

I mean, you can even see like six, seven years old, you look at them and you're like, my God, it feels like you're 50, you know? You just, you feel like they... Anyway, you can just feel like they've lived so many lives.

And then you have, yeah, some of those people, when they're mature in their 20s, you feel like it's not coming from a lack, it's just really part of their essence. It's not that they had to grow up faster.

It's just that they, that's who they've always been. Like it's very, yeah.

Okay. Now we're going to take a U-turn because there's one scene when Carrie's actually on her way to meeting Mr. Big, where Charlotte calls her and Carrie's freaking out because she's trying to get ready, look beautiful.

I can see that she's in the zone, you know?

She just wants to decide what kind of woman she's going to come across as and she has no time for Charlotte and Charlotte is like, I have a question and I have to pose it now and Carrie's like, you have two minutes.

And then Charlotte says, my new boyfriend, the one with money, looks and manners, wants to discuss whether or not she'd be open to having anal.

And for this, I will say like Carrie comes across as both a very good friend and a bad friend in this episode. In this case, I think she's a very good friend because she's like, okay, I'm coming to pick you up. We'll discuss this.

This is going to be the sex part of the therapy today. But what do you think about the girls' conclusions when they're all in that cab discussing it? Because I think Miranda's like, this is about respect.

Will he respect you more or less after you say yes? I think she also says that there's a shift in power, which I have discussed this with a gay male friend of mine who said that there is a shift in power.

And then, you know, we have good old Samantha saying, a hole is a hole. What do you think, especially knowing Charlotte? And eventually we see Charlotte saying, I don't know what I want, but I'm scared that you'll dump me if I say no.

And if I say yes, I'll be the up-the-butt girl, and nobody marries the up-the-butt girl.

I think the reasons for her decision-making are a bit flawed, but what do you think, number one, what do you think about the girl's advice, and two, what do you think about Charlotte's navigation of this?

I think it's like, it's so... It fits so much their characters, right?

Yeah.

Like Miranda being the lawyer, feminist, empowerment, like you wouldn't expect anything else coming from her. And then Samantha, who's so comfortable with her sexuality, who's also very adventurous, who's also...

She generally does just see it as like another whole, it's just another way of experiencing sexual pleasure. But you see, it's like...

I absolutely love this scene because you just look at it and you're like, it can generally be all of these things put together. And I'm very much of a woman that really believes that there's no right or wrong answer in a lot of things in life.

It really is about what feels right for you and what feels wrong for you. And you can already tell that the simple fact that Charlotte has picked up the phone, called Carrie to tell her in full panic, that's it, you had your answer right there.

You didn't need to go and... That's a very good answer. You didn't need to go and ask all of your friends and do...

Obviously, again, it's a TV series. You have to spice it up in this kind of way. And the taxi scene is one of my favorite in the whole seasons because it's just so good.

And even at the end, like when someone like almost... Rearrange them. And then both of them, it was...

It felt just such a natural scene, like something that I would have also experienced with my girlfriend. So I love that scene for that. And I'm so happy that they did it.

But right there and then Charlotte knew that like the answer is no, it doesn't feel right for her. And Charlotte is probably...

Charlotte and Carrie, both of them, are a bit more similar in the sense that they would be willing to do things down the line in a relationship, where it's like we're experimenting things together, it takes time, you know, we want a connection, we

want to build stuff, blah, blah, blah. Whereas like Miranda, even if she gets to a point where she would be okay with it, still has like massively these like social construct of what it means.

Whereas Samantha, it's like the social construct don't exist for her. She's really into just the experiment, experiential.

She's a trisexual, she will try everything once. I'm going to push you a little bit though, because I think it's very interesting that Miranda says, will he respect you more or less if you do it?

And I think, I thought, okay, if this were Samantha, Samantha would not care whether he would respect her more or less after she did it, because she would have done it for herself.

And in that case, I even think that that wouldn't matter to the man, because you can see that she's doing it for herself.

Whereas I think if Charlotte went ahead, did it, enjoyed it, and then she, for whatever reason, read in the guy that he respect her less, and I am sure that she'd be fishing for cues to read whether he respected her more or less, then she would feel

ashamed of her choice. So, do you think that you will always be the one as the one that agrees or doesn't agree to it? Do you think that you'll be the one that decides whether or not that will be a respect issue?

Or do you think that maybe when you are in a committed relationship, like Charlotte is portraying us to be in in this episode, do you think that if you see your partners losing respect or changing after getting something that he asked for, that will

But can I just ask, what's the link between anal sex and respect?

Very good question, Nicole.

I actually have a guy friend. So Nicole is Lebanese, I'm Spanish. Spain is not Catholic officially, but we are very old school.

And I remember once when I was in college, we were all sitting for brunch or dinner. We were living in the US, so we were in New York having dinner, some Spanish guys and some Spanish girls.

And we were talking about sex, and one of the guys was talking about this girl going down on him. And in the conversation, he said, my wife won't be doing that. This is something that I get to do with girls that I have fun with.

So I think to me, this is an extrapolation. Like, anal can be put in that same category of you know you're taking something or you're enjoying something that maybe she didn't put on the table, it's for you.

And we know that we talk about, or they talk about blow jobs later in the show and they say that you actually have the power because you have them by the balls.

But I remember then I met an association that some men may see that as denigrating to women. And I'm going to go and take a huge leap and say, anal could be put in that same category.

Yeah, probably. But then a person that thinks like that will put a lot of things into that category, not just anal.

So if you think that that man would have respected less Charlotte, then he's not going to be a good partner anyway.

I think if their sexual relationship overlaps with the respect that he has for her as a person, I think then for me, this is someone that I don't want to get anywhere near, even on a friendly level. Do you see what I mean?

I see what you mean.

That these things should not have anything to do with respect. Right. Because it's supposed to be around a certain connection for both of you.

Yeah. It's like kissing. It doesn't matter.

So you think that once you decide that this is a good, healthy, safe relationship, then sex should be something where you can both explore, but respect will never be on the line.

Exactly.

100%. Perfect. And if it is, like that guy that you were talking about in New York that says that, it's because he has a very limited perception of what a wife is supposed to be.

It's like he's put her into specific categories. And being like, you know, someone that you adventure yourself in sex or you experience things together is not that. So he's created that condition.

And that, for me, is like, OK, if he's put a limit to what she can be.

Yeah.

He's not talking about a person. He's talking about a role.

He's talking about the mother of his children.

Exactly.

And the mother of his children won't go on her knees and won't take it up.

I don't want to marry someone or I don't want to be with someone that sees me as the mother of their children. For me, and I've always said that the relationship will always be more important than any other relationship. It's at the center of it.

It's me and this person, and then our kids come, and then our siblings, and our parents, and our friends, and all of that. It's both people. That, for me, just puts a bit the line into the types of relationship that you want to be in.

When Miranda talks about that, I'm just like, wow, okay, she's linking this to that.

I understand why, because obviously, she's talking about men that can objectify women that have done that, but a real proper relationship wouldn't even make you put those two things together. Okay. They don't belong together.

Very good, but I think, unfortunately, for instance, in my country, I can see some men that still will only marry a certain type of woman, and they will, I'm sorry, will probably cheat on them, because...

Yeah.

But it's because they're operating from an ego place. They're not operating from a soul place. They're not going for that soul connection.

They're going for, who's the woman that's going to make me look good the best? Who's the woman that has slept with the least amount of men, that I have less chances of coming across? This is pure ego.

Okay.

Very good. Then on the sex theme of the episode, Carrie then, because she leaves, she goes to this non-date with Mr. Big.

Mr. Big brings a third wheel. She leaves and she leaves her cat fair on the table.

So she has to walk home and she passes by the 20-something club, goes in, runs into Sam No Tits or 20-year-old Sam, and they start kissing. And I love how the writers commit to a bit and they will explode it through the episode.

I'm here because 20-something-year-olds are the designer drug. She says, but just to take the edge off, but the kisses are not enough. I need more.

And she ends up sleeping with him. And she seems to really enjoy herself. She's giving consent, enjoys herself.

And just when she thought she couldn't get any higher, he spooned her. And then we fast forward to the morning and in the harsh light of day, she's like, damn, I'm in a 20-something year old apartment. Everything's a mess.

What do you think about her not getting high enough just from the kisses? What do you think about her looking for that high after maybe feeling rejected or let down by Mr. Big?

How would you have navigated that or taught a client how to navigate that?

So for me, those two moments that she has with Sam noted are very different because one, it's like she was experiencing a connection with someone. Big came interrupted. Big left.

She continued what she was going to. Whereas this one was she was going for A and then A didn't provide, and actually A probably hurt. And she needed to go to B to make herself feel better.

So the use of the drug is also very different, right? That's number one. So do you see how they're different?

The use of the drug. That's number one. Number two, the drug is only with him.

It's only a physical thing, actually more of a sexual thing because there's nothing else. There's no intellectual connection. There's no story.

He's not funny. He's not like, there's nothing. It's just that.

So yeah, like kissing will be fun. I mean, in reality, you know, maybe by the third or fourth time, it would feel like it's not enough, right? Not maybe from the second time.

But anyway, there's just, yes, obviously, when something has like run its course, you need more of it and more of it and more of it until it explodes like it did on the next day where she's like, actually, I'm like the negative of it felt a lot more

Yeah.

It's like the next time she probably wouldn't have been able to kiss him and think about sex because she knows exactly what room she's walking in.

So it's just it's like it's run its course. It's right. It's given as much as it could give.

I said that Carrie was a good friend and a bad friend in this episode.

And I say that she's a bad friend, but maybe that's just her boundary. At one point, there's a scene where she's with Miranda. They're talking about where a single 30-year-olds have gone.

And Miranda says, by the way, wearing a tie. So I was wrong. She does wear a tie again.

She says, Giuliani had them removed along with homeless people. And she says, I got a bounce because I'm meeting my editor, or she's late for a deadline or something like that, to meet with Sam.

Because I think at this point, she was trying to, and this is before they sleep together. She was trying to explore maybe that other side of the connection that is not physical.

But she lies to Miranda about seeing him, because I think obviously we're talking about 20-something year-olds as an addiction.

I don't know if it's about that, or if it's about her being ashamed of exploring something with a 20-year-old, or about her maybe having boundaries around the fact.

I think it's the boundary thing, quite the opposite. When she did that, and then I realized, I was like, well done her for not going somewhere that she didn't necessarily want to go, you know?

Like this is for me, I love my friends and everything, but sometimes, you know, there's just this thing that I may not want to tell them, because I don't maybe know what it is yet. I want to understand it before I can do that.

Because also, like, she knows that it would have gone into like a bit of an analysis thing. Now, at the same time, I think she knew that this is weird. I don't know what this is.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe it's a bit of a drug. Like it feels, it's like interrogation points on top of it.

Do you think that little white lies to our girlfriends are okay if it's to protect your boundaries around, you know, I'm not ready to disclose this yet.

Yeah, I mean, not just with friends.

I think they're important. I mean, they're important with everyone except your therapist.

You should tell your therapist everything.

No, but but like, yeah, it's like, especially as adults, you know, it's this is this is me. Like, I don't I don't necessarily want to go there.

Yeah. Okay. So I think this is more or less the entire episode.

Then we see Carrie after she leaves this nightmare of a 20 something year old flat. She goes and go shopping for shoes, and then she runs into Mr. Big, and they have a very perfect interaction, at least in her mind.

And I know that this is a show, but sometimes this does happen. You're like, I handle that like a boss. And as you were saying, Nicole, I think she does put her value.

She's like, obviously, you're a bit lost into where to place my value. My value is up here. So we'll see if I meet you.

Call me, and we'll see. And then she walks away and says, and looks back and smiles and says, that would have been so cool if I hadn't looked back. Which I think, you know, plays into who she becomes around Mr.

Big, that she always feels like she needs to put on a little act. So, that's the episode. Unless you want to touch up on something, I wanted to ask you, what would your advice be for each one of them?

Is there anything that you want to talk about with that scene?

No, I loved it. I just felt like, well done. Because again, there is a little bit of a chase right at the beginning of that scene.

When she sees them, she makes a comment, and then she walks. First chase is him literally leaving his seat to come and chase her. Then be like, no, no, no.

Let's put a date. And that could have been enough.

For her to get her...

Yeah, that could have been enough for her to be like, you know what? I didn't give him anything before. Because he invited her to sit and have a drink with them.

And then she says no. And then that could have been enough for her to be like, I said no, and he's chasing. Okay, fine.

We'll put a date. And she still says no. When she did that, I was like, well done you.

Because we know how much she really likes him. It's very easy to go, okay, I'll take the first chase. I promised myself he needs to chase.

That could have been it. So I really appreciated that from her. I was like, well done.

This is good behavior. This is risk taking. She's a risk taker in that scene.

Well done.

And then probably off she went back home to think about every single thing about that interaction and over read it. Okay, so to end the episode, let's say that you saw each one of the four girls for their therapy sessions at the end of the week.

I'll go one by one. So Carrie would come in and tell you all about how she had been running around town with a 20 something year old and getting excited about exploring things with Mr.

Big and she would have probably told you in great detail all the different clues, messages, texts, phone calls, voicemails that Mr. Big did. What would your advice had been to her?

Carrie is so much of a thinker and she's very analytical.

She's very in her brain. So Carrie definitely the way that I would be working with her is to get her outside of her brain and to start connecting a lot more with her body and her intuition.

Because when she does, these are like the moments that she thrives really. And I think she did that. Like you see it at that last scene.

She's feeling a lot more confident. She's just feeling good. With running away for a week with like a younger time, that's fun.

Like it's just, it's fun. It's like that's, you need that. But I would have done the difference between those two moments.

How one was just really fun and you rode the wave and all. The other one you went and you sought after something because you felt hurt. So then I would probably stay with that hurt a little bit and say, how did that feel?

Why did you feel the need to go and like put a bandaid on it straight away? And you go a bit more into details.

Even if you, and this is for anyone who's listening, but even if you're still going to do the thing to make yourself feel better, having the awareness that you're doing it exactly for that purpose, because it's hard for you to sit with the rejection,

Okay, I love that.

Would you have read anything into her maybe spending way too much time into all the details?

Yeah, that's her being in her head, so much of that. But again, I would also acknowledge the fact that she's a writer. This is also, it's like she makes money off of that, right?

She makes money off of being in her head. But I would encourage her to leave the analysis just for us. Do a lot less of it with her friends.

Okay.

Then Samantha, what do you think about her exploring things with John, no age, no last name, and also dumping him over the fact that at one point he said, you know when we're lying down in bed and I get to see the wrinkles of your neck, I love it.

She's like, nope, because she realizes that she's always going to be older, and that's where she's like, okay, this is not for me. What would your advice have been for her?

Yeah, but you know, Samantha, I think her character, it's so conflicting because she's the most confident person you can ever see really. And even in the like six seasons, two movies, you only see her crack like a handful of time, right?

But even in her crack, there's like, she allows it to be, and then she like bounces back, and she's back there. So for her to feel so insecure about the aging and the wrinkles and all of that, almost like it's fine.

Like for me, that's very much scripted, because someone that is that confident about a lot of things that society judge, that shouldn't be it.

Unless, unless, and this is where like perhaps the exploration with her would be, unless she's using sex as a way to something else.

And I mean, if you look at like the extra behavior, there are two things with Samantha is that she has a very specific way of living life. For her life is about like glamour, friends, money, career, enjoyment, fun.

And she's living, like not only does she want this life, she's also abiding by it. So she's very good at that, at living the life that she wants for herself.

But obviously from like almost like a bit of a, I don't want to say like a clinical stance, but like if from a therapist stand, when you just look at it a bit, you're like, okay, there's some exaggeration in some places.

But she may disagree with that. She may say, listen, like, I just have a good sexual appetite and I attend to it. As a therapist, you completely have to also respect that.

I always do this with clients where like, we still explore it to try and understand a bit more if there's something in there. Like Samantha, we know nothing about her childhood. Absolutely nothing.

Nothing, which is like almost a bit weird. I mean, all of them, you know a bit nothing, but you'll get like some tips here and there. With her, you don't know anything.

So I would just be curious to know like what's going on. But in terms of like owning up to her essence, she's the one that does it the most.

Yeah. So you think she's very true to herself and she's unapologetic about it and that's healthy.

She is, unless she's not, you know, and like she hides it really, really well. And that's why I would just be like, I'm always a bit, you know, when you have these clients sometimes that like are just, it almost feels like too good to be true.

Yeah.

And you're like, you're either like my guru.

Yeah.

And I'm in awe of you even as a therapist, or you're just so fucking good at like hiding something.

I mean, I think for Samantha, if this relationship with John, no age was purely a physical one that is supposed to make her feel good.

And then somebody points at wrinkles that by no means are deemed a positive thing, especially in a woman, by society. Then I'd be like, you know what? Yeah, this doesn't fit into the box that I put this in by.

But there's been other people that have come on the podcast that have said that all of her power lies in her sexuality and where is your power outside of that? And also how vain she is. Like, she wants to keep things light.

She doesn't want to be vulnerable.

So, this is where you work on it. But then later we see that she is capable of it.

Yeah.

She is. Yeah. She has her barriers up and all, but if someone is good enough and kind enough, and I will never forget that scene of the elevator, where she comes back from the penthouse where she was going out with-

With Richard.

Yes.

But what's the name of the guy?

The blonde?

Smith. It was waiting for her. Like she dumped him.

She went up, had sex, felt terrible about it, went back down and he was still waiting for her. Like that's the kind of man that it took for her to feel safe with.

Someone that would still be okay with her, even though she cheated literally in front of his eyes and still be okay. Like that's how difficult she can be, you know, before getting into love.

Complicated in her, yeah.

But her relationship with Smith is so good. It's so, so good when it comes to that.

Okay, then for Miranda, I think the biggest thing in this episode for her is that she continues to go out with Skipper and at some point, they bring in this 20 something year old confessional into the camera of like, why do you like dating older

women? And you see that Skipper is a hopeless romantic and he likes older women because they know who they are. They know what they want and he likes that. And I love that.

So what would your advice to her be, knowing that Skipper is Carrie's friend? So I understand if you define this as a fuck thing, but you must know enough to know that Skipper is who he is in that confessional and how you're treating him.

Yes. And I mean, with Miranda, I would definitely be talking about like the whole how casual and what if it wasn't that casual and you're trying to convince yourself that it's that casual. And because he sees her.

Yes.

Right.

For me, it's not just a fuck thing. He makes her feel really good about herself. So that's what I would actually focus on a little bit.

Be like, he sees you for who you are because he described her basically in that confessional. And how does that feel for you to be seen like that? Yeah.

This, you know, despite the sex or like regardless of the sex, there's something that he that he gives her.

But I think what I would mainly I mean, if Miranda was to tell me about the taxi episode and the stuff that she said about anal sex, my God, I would definitely get into this and be like, okay, tell us more.

Yeah, because I think she's very and I understand that the world is a very difficult place. Right.

And when you start seeing almost so many of the big societal problems and all of that, you can very much become a pessimistic person, a bit like, you know, they would say actually more realistic, but you become very mistrusting of the world.

You become very, you know, you overgeneralize sometimes. You feel like everybody's like that. So I would really work on that with her to.

Do you think it's like there's room for improvement with her hang ups around what sex means and what different things in sex mean?

And men, just like she's a feminist.

And we do need people that are sometimes a bit extreme in the way that they think in order to rebalance things. And my job as well as a therapist is to sometimes have to respect that, that not everybody can be in the middle.

That sometimes you'll need these like extremist views to... It's part of their mission almost. Like you really feel it intrinsically.

But when you're in therapy, it's because you want to learn more about yourself and you want to work through some of the pain points.

If her views of the world were starting to endanger her, like if she was really starting to become mistrusting of men and the world and just, you know, everybody has like bad... Because you feel like she's an angry woman.

Yeah.

Miranda is 100% the angry woman, at least in season one.

Yeah.

And I would work on that, like to...

So you think that what she pursues with men's relationship might be for the wrong reasons. That's what I'm understanding. Sometimes.

And like even, you know, the power dynamic, she talks a lot about power, power, power.

Yes. Okay. So is this why you're with Skipper?

Because you still feel like you're in control, you're powerful. Because maybe when she's in love, it goes away and that's dangerous for her.

So there's like, there's a bit of that, but not in the same controlling way that like Charlotte has, you know, where like everything needs to be great and perfect.

Super interesting, Nicole. Okay. And then last but not least, Charlotte, who is, this is her episode to shine, because she not only gets a boyfriend with all three, but also character development.

She gets asked to do something that maybe she's not comfortable with. She entertains it for a hot five minutes, but then eventually she says no.

And if all this had happened and then after the fact comes to your clinic or to your office, what would you say to her?

It's so interesting because when you started talking about her, the first thing that I said is like, she's too anal. And then we were talking about like anal sex, right? So like she's stiff, like she is too anal.

And for me, Charlotte, the main issue with her is...

Is her universe sign for her to get what she's been given.

Maybe. But she has... External validation is so important for her, external image, external everything.

And I say it again, when she calls Carrie, she already knew the answer to her questions.

And you would have probably told her this.

100%. And I would actually tell her like, you need to... You know what is right.

And sometimes what is right is also not those big threes.

Yeah.

And, you know, she has liked some men that didn't have those big threes. And she doesn't trust it. She doesn't trust it.

OK.

And my last question. What would you say to her or to any of the listeners if they asked you, how do I go about putting something on the menu sexually that has not been in my wishlist, but I know is important to my partner?

Which might have been the case if Charlotte did date this guy.

You mean if you're like in a really good relationship? Yes. I mean, yeah, it's a tough one, right?

Because, well, first of all, assuming that consent is there, there is sometimes this, it's like, there's a level of how much you don't like it, right? But it's like, I mean, I'll give you such a silly example, but like my husband loves pesto.

Yes.

I'm really not a big fan of pesto, but how much do you hate it? Yeah, but I don't hate it enough to completely remove it from the menu and be like, no way, there's just no way like pesto doesn't enter my house. No, it's not that.

But it's like, it's not my choice. Like whenever if he cooks and like he's done his pesto pasta and he's proud of it, I'm just like, you know what, okay, fine. Like fine.

I didn't enjoy my dish. But then do I have to enjoy it every time? Like do I have to enjoy my dinner every time at that same level?

There are moments that, but it's okay. I can still, but if I was to like, I don't know, be sick because of it or no, then there are, yeah.

So keeping it in the pesto analogy, the first time you would wear to try pesto, would you then take it very slowly? Or like, okay, I only want a little bit and we can take it from there and slowly. Is that the appropriate way?

Absolutely.

And this is in anything in life. You know, I mean, we talk about food. I think it's just such a food and sex have a lot in common, by the way.

But food, like I'm always so surprised when, let's say, I host a lot, so I'll invite people and I cook a lot. And sometimes I'll have like a guest or two. They're like, no, no, no, no, I don't eat that.

Have you ever tried it? Like, have you ever tried the ingredient? No, no, no.

But I just feel like I know I won't like it. And then I go, wow, okay. Like you also limit yourself.

You don't know what you're going to like and dislike. But when you put yourself into very rigid categories, so me saying I like that or I dislike that after trying it is a lot more solid than me saying no when I haven't tried it.

But then there are also things in life and anything that you, it's like bungee jumping. I look at it and I'm like, that's really not for me. I would love to have the after effect, but I don't want it, right?

Whereas other people might be more curious about it and all. But that's for me, I'm like, I don't even want to try to figure out if I'm going to like it or not. That's like, do you know?

So but then when, okay, let's bring it back to sex. When you are in a very beautiful relationship that you really love, and you really love the person that you're also with, there is automatically this encouragement to try things for one another.

And to be at least able to talk about these things. So for me, it's like, it's all these different elements. If there's something that your partner likes doing, you don't like it, but you're okay doing it a couple of times, every now and then.

It's a pleasure thing, right? It's like, if you're celebrating something, if you want to give them something, it's a form of love. That's basically what it is.

And you can really compare it to a gift, you can compare it to a dish, you can compare it to anything like that.

Whatever makes you feel comfortable in order to have pesto for the first time. Okay, I love that. Thank you so much, Nicole.

I just want to maybe ask you and give you the opportunity to talk about journey because I know how much you care about that.

And I think it's super important to maybe explain what made you found that and what you would like the listeners to maybe take away from what you're trying to build with journey.

That's really kind of you. Yeah, so Journey, like we launched a couple of months ago in June 2024. And Journey is, so for, I'm assuming a lot of the people that are listening are not therapists or coaches.

So Journey for the general public is more of like a client matchmaking platform, but I'm working very, very hard on developing an AI compatibility, because the most important thing in therapy or coaching is the relationship that you develop with your

practitioner. Doesn't matter if they have three doctorates, know all the techniques in the world. All that stuff does not matter.

What really matters is that you can build a connection and you feel comfortable in the relationship, because if that's there, then a lot of things will just come into place.

So a lot of the other platforms out there will focus on proximity or availability. And I'm really not into that.

So you're offering something that maybe is more tailored to ensure that you or the clients have a lot more chemistry where they're therapists.

It's like a bit the hinge of mental health.

OK. Or a matchmaker. We had a matchmaker on episode one.

And I think those services from somebody that has used dating apps are a lot better. So you're a matchmaker, not a dating app, not a swipe.

No, no, I mean, we're not a swipe. It's like there's a lot more of the matchmaking. But I say hinge as opposed to like the other dating apps.

Because Tinder was very much about proximity. Who's around you? Whereas the hinge is a lot more about who you are as a person.

And your values.

Yeah, your values and all of that.

So it might match you with someone that is in New York for all. But if they really believe that this is the best person for you, they'll show you even people that are not in your reach.

So I but with with therapies, obviously it's different because now it's online. You can see anyone anywhere. It's very different.

So we're riding a bit of that wave. But if there are any practitioners listening to the podcast, my main mission with Journey is to take care of practitioners. So Journey is a bit like the LinkedIn for mental health.

So I take care of you, obviously, by giving you clients, but we also help you with growing your businesses. We teach you a lot of things. There's a lot of workshops, community.

So I'll just give you this fact, by the way, we're one million therapists and coaches in the world for a population of billions of people. That's absolutely nothing.

You guys are overworked, for sure.

We are overworked. We're completely burned out. But also what I often tell them is that we're very special.

Not a lot of people can do what we do.

And that for me, that craft, that profession, these people really need to be protected, looked after, and they really do deserve a platform that is just for them, as opposed to being in the pool of people on LinkedIn or in the pool of people on

Instagram. I think there's a place just for them.

Amazing. I think what you're building is amazing, Nicole. And I'll put it in the show notes for the listeners to find you and your practice.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.