Threesomes, Stalking Exes & the Real Meaning of Intimacy — Episode 8 with Albert Thomey, Psychoanalyst

About This Episode

In episode eight of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV sits down with psychoanalyst Albert Thomey to unpack Sex and the City's "Three's a Crowd." They explore what threesomes actually reveal about a couple's intimacy, why Carrie stalked Mr. Big's ex-wife, what Samantha's preference for married men is really protecting her from — and why true intimacy has nothing to do with adding a third person to the bedroom.

What We Cover

• The foundations a relationship needs before introducing a third party — and why Charlotte skipped all of them

• Fantasy vs. reality: what Charlotte's dream about a threesome might actually be telling her

• Why Mr. Big hiding his marriage is less about deception and more about Carrie never really wanting the truth

• Stalking an ex on Instagram: the psychology behind the rabbit hole and what it's really about

• How sex evolves in relationships — and whether going from wild to sweet is always a warning sign

• Samantha and married men: convenience, autonomy, or a fear of intimacy hiding in plain sight?

• The intimacy crisis among younger generations — why sex has become simultaneously everywhere and meaningless

• What real intimacy actually looks like: vulnerability, discomfort and letting go of control

About Our Guest

Albert Thomey is a psychologist, psychotherapist and psychoanalyst based in Athens, Greece, working with clients in person and online internationally. His doctoral thesis explored modern families and non-romantic alliances, and he brings a uniquely layered lens to relationships, identity and intimacy. Find him through the Journey network from episode 4.

Transcript

Hi guys, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That, We Found Therapy. Today we're discussing season 1, episode 8 of Sex and the City, Three's a Crowd.

We're going to be talking about threesomes, sleeping with married men, and stalking your current boyfriend's ex. For this episode, I'm bringing you Albert Thomey, his part of the Journey Network, Nicole's venture from episode 4.

I hope you guys enjoy it, and as per usual, I would really appreciate it if you share it, follow, and rate me 5 stars. I hope you guys love it. See you on the other side.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to And Just Like That. We found therapy. Today, I have with me Albert Thomey.

Hi, Albert.

Hello, hello.

Albert is part of Journey, Nicole's little startup that we had on for episode 4. Albert has more than five years experience in psychotherapy, and he comes from a media background.

And I find it very interesting to say that his doctoral thesis was about modern families and non-romantic alliances.

But today, we are here to discuss season 1, episode 8 of Sex and the City, Three's a Crowd, which is very much, I don't know if romantic alliances, but it's about messy alliances.

I think the main themes for the episode are intimacy, and obviously, threesomes. So Albert, I'll do a bit of framing around the scenes of the episode, and I'll start asking you questions.

So to start with, we get introduced with Charlotte's new, like next husband of the year. She's practically engaged again. She's met this guy at a benefit for Epstein Bar, sometime on something like that.

And, you know, he seems to be her perfect match. He seems to be a very affluent architect that is not only very, probably very successful, he's handsome. And he also wraps shoulders with probably what she aspires to be in her future.

And this is how we get introduced to the theme of the episode, which is threesomes, because I think his name is Jack. They're in bed together, and Jack asks Charlotte, so Charlotte, what are your fantasies?

And this is just his way of her asking him, and then he says, a threesome, you, me and another woman. So then we go over to the girls in the diner, they're discussing about this, how they feel about it, how they think they should do it.

So my first question to you is, what would you consider the basics within a committed relationship to consider bringing a third party into the bedroom?

You know, I try to understand what is the relationship we're talking about. Is it a romantic relationship? Are we talking about fuckbodies?

Can you say that?

With Charlotte, it's never a fuckbody relationship. Like, she wants to marry this. She wants to marry whatever guy she's dating.

So, to me, this is something that she has decided is so right for her and her values, that that is why she's considering a threesome, to make him happy.

So, I guess the timing for discussing sexual fantasies would depend on the dynamics of that relationship, the comfort level of both partners.

One good thing that if you bring it up too soon, does that mean that the relationship is focused on physical intimacy and just that? Which is not bad, right? It just might indicate, what, the lack of emotional foundation?

It's interesting that you bring that up, because later in the episode, there is some talk about how sex life changes throughout a relationship.

But what do you think about what the girls discuss in terms of the three Sims? Because Samantha is obviously like, the only way that you can do this is by being the guest star.

And then they start discussing whether they would want somebody who they are closer with. And Charlotte mentions Carrie, Carrie mentions Sam, and Sam mentions Charlotte.

Do you have any thoughts on this, on what might be a better idea to have a stranger, to be a stranger, or to have somebody that you're close with?

Listen, I think I would widen it up a little bit. Let's talk about fantasies. I mean, the episode, not threesomes, right?

But the episode was shot in 1998. It's been 26 years. And today, yeah, it's been, it's been a quarter of a century.

And the issues that we face today in therapy have changed a little bit, to say the least. Like one of the things we talk a lot about is, like, should I have an open relationship or not? Polyamory.

So whatever it is, you know, and friends are discussing that issue. Like, is it a threesome? Is it polyamory?

Is it open marriage or open relationship? I think it's going to come down to communication and emotional readiness. But the girls, I mean, that's the fun in Sex and the City.

You have these different characters, and each one would fill or come from a different angle, and each one would speak from that character buildup, from that personality they've been working on. And you have all these different opinions.

But at the end of the day, it's what do you want? Where do you see yourself? What are your expectations?

I mean, I think from my perspective, all of those things like polyamory, threesomes, even whatever you want to call it, it would have to come with a lot of trust.

So a very clear set of boundaries and rules, and what does this mean, and what my needs are, what your needs are, why this person is coming in to fill somebody else's needs, where does it start, where does it end, et cetera.

Which I think obviously in this case with Charlotte, I think she's just kind of like taken too many chapters ahead and said, you know what, this man is awesome. He takes all my boxes, whatever he wants goes.

And like not that it goes, but like you can see that she is seriously considering it. So I think the next scene is her and Carrie walking because Charlotte has gone to another event with Jack and Jack keeps pushing about this thing.

And like, you're so sexy. And did you see that woman was checking you out? And oh my God, Charlotte, you're not even aware of this.

And I think he's trying to plant a seed in her head that obviously works because then Charlotte has this sex dream about her walking in, Jack having sex with another woman and they ask her to join them.

And she's telling Carrie like it was so real and it was so exciting. Like you can totally see that she really enjoyed it.

So then Carrie is, you know, going through the motions with her and she says, well, that's great, you know, because like having a dream about something is like getting a dress and never removing the tags.

Like, you know, you get to feel what it's like to do that without actually having to purchase it, which I don't fully agree with, because obviously in a dream and you probably know more about this is still only your conscience and subconscious.

It's all of your feelings, all of your dreams, all of your values. God knows what Jack is. But also I feel like it's too early for her to know like what his values are and what would that mean.

But Carrie says one thing that really resonated with me, which is just don't do it to make it Jack happy.

What do you think when it comes to an impasse and a relationship where you know, maybe you're in a rut and your partner wants something that maybe you didn't have in mind and you give in to make them happy?

I mean, Carrie in that episode was very much self-centered, right? Like she had her own issue.

She always is.

She always is. Yeah. But here again, she gives a little advice here and there.

I just want to say something about the dream. The dream was very explicit. The dream was very like first degree.

And that's often not the case in dreams. I mean, yes, she wants something and she engages in something. But is it really the threesome?

Or is it the intimacy and the relationship? Like, I know the way we see the scene and we actually think that she went through it, but it doesn't mean that's what she wants.

So you think that her dreaming about this was more about her getting jacked than doing the threesome?

I'm only saying it's a hypothesis. And I would explore that with her, you know, because it's just too first degree. It's just too out there.

Just what's really at stake here. But the advice was spot on to some extent, right? Like, I mean, engaging in something as intimate and potentially complicated as a threesome, that can come from a place of obligation or just to please your partner.

You're going to risk creating a lot of things, resentment maybe, emotional harm, jealousy. Like a lot of topics and a lot of issues are going to come up with that experience, supposedly, or could potentially.

So yeah, it is important to feel comfortable with the experience. But is Charlotte really ready for it just because she dreamt it? I'm not so sure.

And in terms of somebody pushing themselves to do something, to make their partner happy, where do you think the line lies between a bit of discomfort just because, you know, everybody likes to stay in a comfort zone and go in beyond your boundaries

Did you find Jack manipulative or?

A hundred percent.

He was pushy.

But I mean, partners do push each other. Does it come from a place of, you know, I'm with you, I'm grounded, I'm encouraging you, I'm behind you.

It didn't seem like it.

Discussable, right? But I mean, in the case it comes from that place, why not? Like, yes.

Otherwise, we're going to stay in our comfort zone all our lives. But again, is it my opinion as a person we're looking for or as a therapist? Because as a therapist, I just have to listen to her and see what she wants and where does she want to go.

And how she felt about these compliments. She didn't seem to, she seemed to be very gullible about them. Like she was very lovely accepting them.

The bar is very low for Charlotte to agree to do something.

Okay. So then after that scene, I think we get Carrie's voiceover and she's saying, in a world where even Charlotte was considering a threesome, like was I the only one believing in a one-on-one relationship?

And she's at Bigg's house and I think she's so happy. And I think everybody fell in love with Carrie because Carrie is so adorable about the way that she's in love with Mr. Bigg.

And I think she talks about the fact that now they're doing sleepovers. So she's talking about them entering into deeper levels of intimacy. And then he asks her if she's going to be free for lunch.

And she says, no, I have an interview for my column. I'm researching about threesomes. Ever had one?

And she's tying his tie. And Mr. Bigg says, yes, of course, who hasn't?

Carrie completely chokes him with a tie. She's like, you have? And then he says, yeah, with my ex-wife.

And that's like two blows in one because Carrie had no idea that he had been married. And if I am Carrie and you were my therapist, at this stage, I can probably assume they've been dating for like more than four months. What the fuck?

I'd be like, how did I not know this? Do you think that it's on me for not asking? Do you think that he hit it on purpose?

Like, what's that about?

I mean, I would like, yeah, how did you feel about that?

Like, I feel like I don't know the person.

I mean, she does live in her imaginary world. She does ask questions. She kind of knows the answers or at least expect the answer.

She's scared of the truth.

I mean, yeah, she doesn't really push to get to know more from what I saw.

She doesn't really want to get hurt. She doesn't really want that crystallized story to crumble or to darken. I'm not sure she really wants to know these things.

I agree.

So, then she does what us girls do when we're scared of the truth. And she goes and talks to Samantha and Miranda about this. And they're trying lipsticks and they give her terrible advice.

But this is when you were talking about the evolution of the sex life through a relationship and Carrie's talking to her girlfriends about her finding out that Mr. Big used to have a wife. She says, well, yeah, apparently, he used to be married.

Not only that, they had wild sex. We used to have wild sex, but now we have sweet sex. And you know what happens when, you know, it becomes boring.

So, to this, like I have several questions about this, because I do think it's important to know that sometimes if the sex is 90% of the beginning of a relationship, does that mean that maybe, as you said, there's no emotional connection and maybe

you're overlooking things. And the other question is, what do you think about maybe sex becoming dull? Does that mean that that's the only way forward, that all relationships end up falling into like this routine and boredom?

What do you think about that?

I guess even if the relationship is only sexual, but it's good sex, I mean, that's a connection. You don't have that with anybody. I mean, usually.

And that's something to work on, and that's something to build upon if you want to. I could see where the idea of wild sex becoming sweet sex would hint at a transition and like losing excitement and all of that. But I would ask, is it good sex?

Is it still a good connection? Are you enjoying it? Are you having a good connection?

Are you comfortable trying new things? Or even suggesting them? And that shifts, because this is the issue in the episode.

Like if we go from wild sex to sweet sex, that's going to lead to cheating. That's going to lead to wanting other things that put us out of our comfort zone, like threesome or other. But relationships do evolve and we evolve.

It's natural for intimacy to maybe take on another form over time. It's good to communicate about these things and talk and explore ways of, you know, you read in those horrible blogs, articles about how to keep the spark on and how to...

I mean, yeah, how do you do that?

So I think at this stage, they're still probably having good sex, but she obviously feels very insecure. She feels very insecure because, as you said, she's not willing to see many things.

So you're insecure because there's probably so much of this man that you don't know that everything poses a threat. I think she's over-reading into that. And then the girls have this magical piece of advice.

It's like, well, you know what to do. Go stalk.

Amazing. A gold piece.

Had you been a fly on the wall as their therapist, would you have been like, nope?

It's fun. It's light. But how many of us check each our partner's phones or messages or try it?

I mean, we do have this tendency sometimes. You hear about it. I mean, it's not foreign.

We don't like to admit it, but we do get jealous. We do. But the act of stalking and going to have lunch with that person is a...

I mean, that's too far.

Listen, Carrie is super insecure as a character.

She is a deeply insecure character. And then Mr. Big says it at some point.

The reason we're having a threesome, what did he say? It's because we're both...

It's because we were looking for somebody else....

or somebody else, right? Like, boom, the piece of truth that comes from the most emotionally detached character of the show.

Okay, Albert, but I need to ask you a question. Because I've seen Carrie, I've seen Carrie, we've seen Carrie through the seasons, through the men. And this particular side of her that is very insecure only comes out when she's with Big.

So do you think that is because she truly feels very vulnerable upon something she thinks that is way better than she could ever aspire to get? Or do you think that is deeply embedded in her whole persona?

I would go for the latter. I would go it's deeply embedded in her persona. Because this is the moment of truth.

This is the moment where she's facing her real emotions. This is the part where she's not faking it, not pushing, not, you know, not trying to assert any... That's her at her most sensitive, at her most fragile state.

So you think that even if you're somebody that, you know, feels pretty, pretty secure, if you meet somebody who you deem is finally worthy of you and yourself, you start feeling very insecure is just a symptom that you need to do a lot more work on

I would rephrase what you just said, Isabelle.

Someone who's worthy of me, she should really be comfortable with herself first. Like it's as if she's coming from a place of, am I worthy of that relationship?

Yes.

And that's the issue. The way it was phrased, I sensed, okay, there's something off with the sentence. Like I should be worthy of it.

And then see if we can build something together. There's a dependency. There's a, as if something is missing, as if that person is going to fill something or add something.

And I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that wording because it maybe gives a hint of, you know, there's like, let's review your objectives. Let's review yours. How you perceive yourself, how you perceive that relationship.

Yeah.

I don't know what it is about Big with her, but like I do see her being very insecure about him. And I don't know if it's within her or he just doesn't provide enough and doesn't love her the way she needs to be to feel safe.

But you see, at this stage, we're projecting. At this stage, what came to mind? What did you think of when you saw that scene, when you see Carrie so volatile facing that man?

I mean, when I saw that, I thought that's crazy, not only to stalk the wife, because I get the wife works in, the ex-wife works in publishing.

You can Google her. I'm sure Google was a thing back then. And try to find out she's also kind of in a similar sector, ask around, like in what world does she go?

That's one thing that I think the other thing is...

Not a plan. She suggested a book which made no sense. I mean, she's usually very meticulous, right?

And then she comes up with a cigarette for adult and like, what are you talking about?

Although they have a moment about that, and she does seem to be lovely, but my thing when I'm going through this and I think about this, and especially now that I watch the episodes with the mindset that I want to ask you guys questions, is why do

That's a great question.

Like, he went that far to avoid being in the same room with him and open up that topic.

That's that.

But then if I bring what she did, which was take the ex-wife out for lunch or like whatever, pitch this idea and then go for lunch to find more information, what would you say to maybe a client in this day and age that whenever she's dating somebody,

she feels the need to like stock the ex on Instagram or if she breaks up with somebody, stock the new girlfriend on Instagram? Because I think I'm very black and white and very brutal when it comes to that. Whoever meets me now, I'm new.

Nothing happened to me. You will never hear a name out of my mouth. Nobody ever existed.

I won't ask anything. I don't need to know anything. But I have a lot of friends who have gone down that rabbit hole of who is she, what does she look like, who are her friends, what's her vibe.

And unfortunately, I also have many friends that have scrolled all the way down to 2012 and then some liked a picture and then all hell breaks loose.

What would you tell a client if they were that kind of, okay, my man has a new girlfriend or the ex-girlfriend or...

Imagine if she had access to social media.

Carrie would have been recruited for the CIA or something.

I mean, she did what she could with the means that she had, but she's a creative and resourceful woman.

I would like somebody to fix all of these girls, because I have some great girlfriends that have been stuck in the just knowing. They think that knowing everything that surrounds their ex protects them.

Isn't that the definition of being controlling? Isn't that the definition of protecting yourself? Like more control, assert more control, so that I minimize the potential damage?

Yes, but does that work? It doesn't, but it comes from a place of vulnerability, a place of emotional fragility maybe, and that's what we work on in therapy. But I would think like, why?

Why are you putting yourself in that situation? What other things could make you focus on yourself and develop yourself and push boundaries? And if you really want to help them, listen to it, get to the whole story.

Because once we understand what's at stake, we understand the symbolism behind that.

Understood. So, in this theory, if whoever is stalking somebody's ex's new girlfriend because he hurt me, he did this, so then you would try to heal everything that that journey has meant for them.

We use symbols. It's so much easier. We get a fight over a toothbrush or over a towel that's thrown on the floor.

We don't get into a fight because of the actual beef. We always find it easier to get stuck on these little things and these little behaviors because the wording is easier, the context is easier, there's no much emotional weight.

But let's break that frontier and get to the heart of it. The behavior we're describing is the first layer. What's behind it?

What's the second layer? What's the third layer?

So it's a symptom of something that you would probably need to work through in therapy. So I'm sorry, listeners, there's a lot of work.

There's a lot of work. And this is what we do in psychoanalysis. We allow the hidden to emerge.

Okay.

And then I have another question regarding Mr. Big and Carrie, because then Carrie goes for lunch with Mr.

Big's ex-wife, and they're talking about the fact that they're not going with a proposal, but they decide to become friends and they have like a lovely lunch, boozy lunch, and I guess they start sharing.

And then Carrie gets to what she wanted to know. She's like, have you ever been married? Blah, blah.

And she finds out that they got divorced because he had a wandering eye that went wandering straight into her best friend. As a woman, and I think Carrie, in this case, the same, like that's unforgivable.

If I were the ex-wife, I would never forget either of them. And I think I'd question a lot if in the same week, I find out that my boyfriend of four or six months has been married before, and I didn't know that.

And that marriage broke up because he cheated on his wife with his wife's best friend. I'd be like, that's too huge, red flag.

But is it a trait of character? It happened once. Does that mean it's going to happen again?

How thwart can your morals be in order for you to go there with your ex-wife's best friend?

What do we know of the story?

We're filling blanks with just putting our worst fears and our concerns into the blanks. But that is supposed to answer these questions. It's not here.

It's you, Albert.

And Carrie is upping her game and going to that lunch and randomly and in a very demure way asking, oh, were you married?

Like, what the hell is happening here?

I think the only redeeming thing that I would take from all of this, because then Carrie gets more and more insecure about the whole thing. And I think they try to sleep together and she can't get the ex-wife out of her head. So she can't.

And Mr. Big gives a bit more context around the breakup. But the only redeeming quality is if Mr.

Big and his ex-wife are still in talking terms, so much so that they have a friendly chat about the fact that your new girlfriend is talking to me.

I guess the ex-wife just decided that the unforgivable there was a friend or the circumstances were understandable. I don't know. I give it a pass for that, but that to me was like, whoa.

The end of the day, this is about Carrie's insecurity.

At the end of the day, it's not about Mr. Big and his ex-wife and the fact that they're in good terms. It's about her feeling that's going to happen to me.

I'm going to hit the wall. This relationship is going to end the same way. That's her fantasy.

That's her reality, actually. But it doesn't mean it's the truth. It doesn't mean it's what's going to happen.

It might, but at this stage, it's just her moving on to this labyrinth of negative thoughts, because it comes from within her. It touches on something very intimate, something that made her afraid of losing somebody she really cares about.

Do you think that that is fair, considering that he's not there for her? Like, she has already placed him at the tonic pole of her priorities, but obviously, you know, she's supposed to be 33 or 34.

I'm 35 now, and I can tell you, like, girl, you're jumping, like you're diving head first into a pool where you don't know if there's water, because you're having zero conversations with your man.

And she chose him. She chose him as such, out of the millions of bachelors or married men, if you want, in New York. She chose that person for a reason that was not random.

I just honestly, I am always saying this in the episodes now, but like, it's crazy that he got so romanticized, and now he is being called out for the problematic character that he was.

He was consistent.

You should, like, let's give it to him. He's a consistent character.

You're absolutely right. Yeah, he never projected anything that he wasn't. Okay, I'm going to switch gears, because then before the episode ends, we also get a snippet of what's going on with Charlotte and her boyfriend.

And they're at a dyslexia ball or something like that. Jack keeps playing up again how sexy Charlotte is, how every woman in there is flirting with her. And then they make eye contact with this woman with a peacock thing.

Charlotte winks at her, and she suddenly becomes very coy, and she says, oh, come on, now let's go, I can't do this. So they run upstairs, and then Charlotte says, I've never told you about my fantasy of sleeping in the upstairs coat room of a party.

And they start making out, and then the peacock lady walks in. Jack looks at Charlotte, and Charlotte kind of like says, yes, let's do it. We get this scene where a threesome is supposed to begin, and Charlotte feels like she's been left out.

But I've talked to somebody about this before recording, because I was like, what do you think about this episode? And questions and da-da-da. And the person who I was talking to was like, well, Charlotte just disappeared too fast.

That's how it goes. What do you think about that? Do you think that Jack just wanted to sleep with somebody else?

Do you think that Charlotte read it right? And she was supposed like she was not a part of the fantasy? What do you think?

I mean, when you try something like this with your partner, there should be a connection and there should be your accomplices.

And that third person is the guest. And I sense that, yeah, on one level, Jack did not make a lot of effort to include Charlotte because that's the first time she does that. And I do agree with your friend that, yeah, maybe Charlotte...

I mean, that's unfair to say. If she did not, it means she was just not ready for it. And that comes back to the dream that she had.

Was it about the threesome or was it more about the intimacy and the broader happiness, lovey-dovey, she is a lovey-dovey type of girl, was more about saying yes to Jack and not to the threesome. But she did leave a bit early. Is it for her?

Not sure. He could have had more.

At the end of the day, ideally, what would have happened there is that they would have had a conversation of what would make Charlotte comfortable. And then he would have known.

And then I would expect that if I leave, my future husband, as Charlotte probably thinks of him, would chase after me.

So it's been linging on for, for, you know, scene after scene. They talk about it. They made the first attempt.

But yes, they never spoke about what to expect, how to go about it. He only said, I have a fantasy of you and another woman. What's the fantasy about?

Who's doing what? What's the, you know, they never went any deeper either.

So Charlotte probably dodged a bullet. And then I think the last scene of this episode is Charlotte and, or Charlotte, Mr. Big and Carrie walking out of a date and they're very quiet.

Mr. Big keeps asking her through this episode, like what's going on? What's on your mind?

I think at this stage is when he says, I know that you talked to my ex-wife and Carrie says, oh, so you also talked to her. You know, that's a lot for me to stomach.

The fact that you have an ex-wife and you're also still friends with her, blah, blah, blah.

She turned it on him. Like, oh, she's good. She's very good.

She's good.

She's amazing at it.

I mean, she didn't even feel a bit of guilt or like, yeah, sorry.

Embarrassment.

I'm the crazy one on the elite. No way. She just...

So you talk. She pushed it on him. She threw it at him.

Fantastic.

Mr. Bigs for me was very cute in this scene, because he was like, listen, she was not for me, and that's that, and that happened ages ago. But do you know anybody that might be good for me?

And I think he's kind of like slowly trying to open up to her.

I found him. I found him again. He was grounded.

He opened the topic. He put the cards on the table and he told her, listen, I do speak with my ex-wife and she told me. Maybe he was waiting for her to bring it up, but he laid all his cards.

He was honest. He expressed his feelings in his own way, and that should have been reassuring. It has maybe to some extent, but this is where you see Cary's deep insecurity that is lingering.

It's just, you know, the fire is still on. It might be smaller, like, but it's still there. And it's going to come up again at another junction.

Oh, and it does in every episode.

But I think the episode closes with a line saying, like, I can understand the allure of a threesome is true intimacy. That's a bitch. Which I think in this case applies to both of them, because Mr.

Big doesn't seem to also be all that used to be invulnerable and be an intimate with somebody. Just to close this, how often do you find maybe your clients having issues with being intimate truly in a relationship?

Well, so the scene, I mean, the issues we deal today, as I told you, open marriages. So I work with university students and I work with adults.

And in the case of university students, I find striking, for example, a recurring lack of desire for sexual connection and intimacy or a complete misunderstanding of it. Maybe the fact that it's so in your face everywhere, a lot of people.

I think I read something along those lines. So you think that is it Gen C-ers or younger? Gen C that are disenamored by exploring, feeling closer to their partners through sex?

The issues that have been brought up.

So today we have a lot of doubts about the orientation, the identity, where we position ourselves, how we see ourselves. It's complicated.

You know, it's rare to see somebody today who comes and tells you, yeah, this is what I am, this is what I want. I mean, I might be biased, but my generation, we might have been worried about what we are, but we knew what we were.

I might be generalizing, I might be speaking from...

Yeah, but this is perfect for the...

But it's something of... Intimacy doesn't come easy with 19, 20 year olds. We're not as easy as you would imagine.

And with the older patients, mind you, I work from Greece, which is a little bit conservative, but there's a lot of hidden. There's a lot of, we don't talk about it.

That's so interesting, though, that they have completely de-glamorized what sex means for a relationship.

Exactly. But just to be clear, again, it was not a generalization, it was not a comment on Greek. It's really what I have encountered with my patients within...

Yeah.

And I've read that elsewhere, because as you say, they feel like it's everywhere. It's in your face, so it's not that special.

Yeah, there's extensive research on the topic, but it seems that sex is lost. You know, what has it become? For some people, it's a scary world.

For some people, it's all that matters. Because a few are the ones that are really able to incorporate a healthy sex life within a healthy relationship that is based on true intimacy. Because what is intimacy?

Is it just the sex? It's vulnerability. It's losing control.

It's letting go. It's not being comfortable every day, but then being comforted by that person. It's being able to say what you have in mind.

It's being able to bring up topics that are uncomfortable. It's being brutally uncomfortable, maybe, sometimes. And it's all of that.

And today, relationships are often challenged by symbols that are meant to make things easier, but they end up being stones in your shoes. But stones you've been carrying for a very long time.

Very interesting. Thank you for bringing that up. Okay, Albert, so now, to put a ribbon on the episode, I'm going to ask you to pretend to be the therapist of each one of the girls.

And feel free to tell them exactly what to do, because you're not in session. So, for Miranda, because I haven't talked about her during this into you, but I would like for you to pretend to be her therapist.

Because Miranda, at one point, when they're at the diner, everybody kind of points at each other, saying that they would have a threesome with each other, but nobody wants to have a threesome. Yeah.

So, imagine if Miranda comes to your office and she's like, I had a dream, we're in a sandbox, and nobody wants to play with me. And...

You see, that's a good dream.

Because when you see the silver...

It's more complex.

It's not as obvious.

I understand, yeah.

Yeah, your subconscious is giving you some homework. It's not like out there. So, what do you think about also what her therapist says, like, okay, so you're sexually attracted to your girlfriend?

Amanda's like, no. What? And then she would ask you, like, would you have a threesome with me?

Do you find me attractive? And then he says, like, we need to speak on why you're asking me that. And then she goes to the lengths of replying to one of those ads to see if a couple would invite her to have a threesome.

What would you tell her?

You know, I liked her therapist. I mean, they chose a character that's, you know, you could be critical of or have a comment on, but he didn't answer appropriately. I would validate her concerns.

I would validate her frustrations if she feels she's overshadowed, that she's dissatisfied, like, yeah, I'd accept that. I would ask, for example, what does this situation stirs in you? And are these patterns familiar?

Because I would love to connect the present to deeper relational dynamics or past experiences that have led her. When she answers, she doesn't connect with the therapist, because usually it's a relationship that you build.

And sometimes as a therapist, you can identify things, but you don't necessarily say them. The patient has to be ready. Actually, they should make the connection themselves.

They should get what we call the insight by themselves. Sometimes when we deem it appropriate, we might hint at it, we might push a little bit, but we obviously, she was not ready for it.

She was still building defenses, and she went on for the second attack phase of just going and answering ads, and she didn't sit for a minute and see what this was really about.

Okay. So do you think that this is merely about validation, or do you think that it's about something else, about maybe her feeling inadequate sexually or...

Try to explore where that comes from. Has she felt that she was holding back in other areas of her life? Is she exerting this control to get intimacy or to get fulfillment?

Like I try to understand the meaning for her.

I would try to get into her reality, even if it is not reality, even if it's not what really happens, but just to understand her construct, her perception of reality, and get into her world, to understand it.

Then Samantha, I also haven't talked about her, but like my biggest question about her, I think her storyline for the episode gets introduced by Carrie's voiceover saying, Samantha was playing her favorite game of, Samantha screws the married guy.

What do you think, like, why would a woman choose to sleep with married men, preferably?

Is it because it's easy? Is it because of the detachment? Is it a fear of intimacy?

Because the way she puts it, it's like she's preserving her autonomy, her sense of agency. There must be something else, like even when relationships are just sexual or without emotional investment, it doesn't mean it's easy.

It's still a toll on you. It still affects you. And I would invite her to consider that and understand that.

What is her perspective again on intimacy, on attachment, on... The self-protection sounds like a defense mechanism. I'm putting boundaries.

Like this is what I want because I'm independent and modern. Is it? Again, isn't there another layer behind all of that?

Yeah.

I do think the more I see her with this new eyes, the more I think that it's just because she's so unavailable, she does try to get the least hassle.

She says it. It's easy. It's convenient.

But again, it still involves complex emotional dynamics. And what about the ethical dilemma? Does she feel...

Exactly.

Yeah.

Do you think that it's important if you're not doing anything wrong, because at the end of the day, you're not the married one, but do you think that there's an ethical dilemma for somebody that sleeps with somebody that knows is committed to

I mean, I think the dilemma is mostly on that partner because you have two adults agreeing to something and they're bound to each other.

We're not exploring if it's ethical or not. We're just exploring what it feels to her. Does she feel?

Does she take pleasure in knowing that somebody is getting lied to and I'm behind it? Or it's not even on the table. It's not even something she looks at.

She actually makes an effort with the wife. She actually, when they both call, when the partner...

She's like, no, no, no, you keep your husband.

She's almost doing couple counseling. She loves to go back to her. But this approach, yeah, reflect, you might say, confidence, boundary setting.

But I would invite her to truly reflect on that.

Okay. Then Charlotte, what would you tell somebody that thinks that in order to be closer with their partner, they need to consider a threesome?

And what would you say to somebody that gets attached so quickly to the idea of somebody as her forever, so quickly?

First question, what do we think about somebody who...

She just says that she thinks that by doing this threesome, she will become closer with Jack. That's when Carrie says, honey, what do you think it means that in order for you to feel closer to someone, you need to bring somebody else in?

I mean, Charlotte's argument is misleading, you know, sharing a new experience. It could create excitement, you know, maybe enhance the connection, share something different.

But like a third person into the relationship, you're going to have to expect a lot of other things as well.

Other feelings, consequences, the closeness, the true closeness would come from open communication, from trust and emotional intimacy, availability, and not from just the fact of pushing boundaries.

Pushing boundaries then is going to make you closer. It's what we've spoken about.

Okay. And then what about her becoming so attached to somebody so quickly just because she or he takes the boxes?

I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, therapy aside, theory aside, why this emptiness?

There's a missing piece and she's not complete in her identity that she thinks is worthy to present to society until she has the man that...

We shouldn't be judgmental. That's what she is. That's once.

Great. Go for it. But there is a longing.

There is a construct that's being made. These people are crystallized. They tick boxes so fast.

You know, they are stamped as pre-approved, good to go, very fast. But you know what? Maybe it's a learning curve.

Maybe she learned and she needs to do these mistakes and she needs to understand what she really wants and what she really looks for. Because if you just come and tell her, you know what? That's not good.

What is it going to do? Is she going to change? Is she going to become another person?

Is she going to stop doing that? It's going to be a helpful advice.

I mean, even the horrible advice the girls give each other can be better than and more helpful than blurting out truth like this because it's not our place, but also sometimes these journeys need to be done in that way.

Yeah, fair enough. I'm a firm believer of that philosophy. Last but not least, Carrie, what would you tell her if she was your client and she came to you and asked you all the questions that we and you have said are meant to be asked to Mr.

Big? And what would you tell somebody that has gone to, through the lengths of stalking the ex-wife to the extent she did?

So regarding the stalking, I mean, let's put it that way. I would gently suggest that this behavior reflects a deeper need for reassurance or control. But I think what I would do is help her stay in the present.

And what are you putting into that relationship today? You're not in competition with the past. A lot of insecurities, if she can't address them on the spot, let's explore fantasy world.

Leave that story on the side. Leave that Mr. Bigg's announcement, meeting the girl, the ex-wife.

Let's put all of that on the side. What's happening in your world? What are you dreaming about?

What are your fantasies? What are you encountering? What's been going on with work?

And you know what? By using that sinuous but indirect road, we would get to it, maybe. Because then patterns would start emerging.

And you're like, but listen, you're doing the same here. And that's what you've done there. And let her get in touch with that.

Let's let her see it, to understand it. And let her not, if it was a rational process, you'd read a book, get it all done and move on. The reason why we go to therapy is because we need to connect emotionally with these stories.

If you just blurt out these truths, it's not going to do anything. You need to be placed back into that emotional mindset to really connect with it and understand where does that come from?

That insecurity, that concern, this whole taking things into your head and controlling the situation, going to meet her and accepting a follow-up. She wasn't even, she didn't even say, you know what, I've seen her, great offers, let's move on.

She actually went to the follow-up lunch.

Of course she did, yeah, she's fucking crazy. Okay, and would you nudge her to maybe have a better communication with a partner?

Yeah.

Because it's baffling.

Like have you spoken about it with her? She's going to say, yes, we did. No, but have you really spoken about it?

Like have you really been listening? Have you been listening to all of it? Or have you been doing partial listening and selective listening?

Just get out of yourself and be there for him today, now.

Okay. I think that's very good advice. You probably wouldn't listen to it.

And then go to her friends and say, like, can you believe what my therapist told me?

And then you're like...

Okay. So thank you very much, Albert. I think just to, before we leave, I'd love for you, for maybe any listeners out there that enjoyed today's session, if you want to explain a bit on how you work, how you treat your patients.

I know there's nudging and maybe not telling them what to do, but if there's any areas that you specialize in and stuff like that.

Thanks, Isabelle. So I'm based in Athens. I work online with patients from different countries, but also in person with expats mainly.

And so I am a psychologist, psychotherapist, but I present myself as a psychoanalyst. So when you find yourself, you know, I did everything right. I have the perfect life.

I have the salary. I have this life, blah, blah, blah. And then things don't work.

Well, yeah, there's another dimension, something from the emotional realm. And that's what we try to explore together. It's a space that offers you whatever you want it to be.

It's a safe space. It's a space for fantasy. It's a space for just reflect on things and get to where you want to be.

Amazing.

Thank you so much, Albert. I will talk to you soon. And thank you so much for doing today's episode.

Thank you, Isabelle, and thank you for everyone listening.

See you soon.