Settling, Sex Toys & Why Marrying Someone Who Loves You More is a Terrible Idea — Episode 9 with Freya Evans

About This Episode

In episode nine of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV is joined by her friend and co-host of the Lesbian Supper Club Podcast, Freya Evans, for a more relaxed, unfiltered take on Sex and the City's "The Turtle and the Hare." They dig into the episode's big themes: settling in relationships, the marriage debate, what Charlotte's rabbit obsession really says about female pleasure — and why Miranda saying men will be obsolete in 50 years was the most prophetic line of the whole season.

What We Cover

• Why marrying someone who loves you more than you love them is a recipe for resentment — not security

• The marriage vs. commitment debate: does a legal contract actually mean love?

• Lavender marriages, Stanford's inheritance and why people marry for pragmatic reasons more than you think

• Mr. Big's breadcrumb: "I thought we were having fun" — holding space or keeping her on the hook?

• Charlotte and the rabbit: what her obsession actually reveals about years of suppressed pleasure

• Sex toys as tools for self-discovery — and how knowing what you want makes you better in bed with someone else

• Settling for a "cute fixer-upper": why no amount of Helmut Lang can create chemistry that isn't there

• Miranda calling men obsolete at season one — and what that was really foreshadowing

• Deal breakers, compromise and when to walk away vs. when to wait

About Our Guest

Freya Evans is the co-host of the Lesbian Supper Club Podcast — a community-driven show building a space for queer women and allies through honest conversation, live events and seriously good merch. In 2025 the podcast is going full force with new guests, events and a brand rebrand. Find the podcast, upcoming events and merch via the show notes, and follow on Instagram for updates.

Transcript

It's 2025, guys, and we're finally back. I am so excited for this week's episode. I know I've always said that I wanted to bring therapists on or dating coaches on just to give you a bit of something.

But in the journey of like dating and relationships, let's face it, sometimes we just want to talk shit with our friends.

So for this episode, I am bringing to you one of my very, very good friends and co-host of the Lesbian Supper Club Podcast, Freya Evans. She was absolutely great. I will post some clips on our pages so you can see the videos of the interview.

And also you can now follow me on Instagram at WeFoundTherapyPod and now also on TikTok at WeFoundTherapyPod as well. I will start posting on socials a bit more this year since I got a new camera.

And as per usual, please listen, rate 5 stars, share with your friends, and give me any feedback that you think I should be listening to. Thank you guys. I love you all.

See you on the other side. Alright, well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That. We Found Therapy.

Today we are discussing season one, episode nine, I think, yes, of Sex and the City, The Turtle and the Hare, and I have with me the lovely Freya Evans.

Oh my goodness. This is so exciting. I have never been on this side of a podcast before.

No, because Freya is a legend in the podcast world.

I thought you were just going to say lesbian.

That's also true.

That is also true. Freya is half of the very successful Lesbian Supper Club podcast.

It's a bit of a mouthful, pardon the pun.

I mean, it always does make me very giddy, so it's only normal that I get tongue-tied.

Well, so does yours. Yours makes me very giddy as well.

But, so Freya has been an absolute sport, because to anybody that heard my rant that went up last Tuesday, I tried to record this with the other half of the Lesbian Supper Club, and I didn't get the audio down, and I was in a pinch, and she came to

No, you are more than welcome.

I have been dying to actually come on, so tell us more, Freya.

Well, I want you to introduce yourself, because Freya is like a unicorn. She sings, she cooks, she dances, she plays the guitar, she is a great friend, and she's a lovely dog mama. We actually have both dogs in here today.

So exciting.

I think dog mom comes first, whenever I come to describing myself. Yes, my identity is dog mom first, lesbian podcasters second, cook third, potentially second actually, because I do just love to cook so much.

And your pesto is almost always great.

Almost. Always. Almost being the real...

Oh, he better not. So talk about dog mama. I've just had my dog barking in the background, which he will be...

He found the treat closet.

Okay, bear with me two seconds.

Right, sorry. Yes. All right, let me say that.

I'll say that again. So more likely like cook second, because I feel like I just do that more. It's a massive passion.

It's something that I'm actually bringing into my socials in 2025.

I'm so excited.

Which is very fun.

Freya is the best cook and we are spoiled because we are neighbors too, in our area for good food and nobody gets close to where Freya is.

Stop it. Yeah. No, you're gassing me up.

You're saying this because you were desperate today and you needed me and you want to make me feel good.

Even your worst pesto beats the best pesto out on the street.

Oh, God, I'll never forget. There was this one time I made Iza this pesto pasta.

Which is my favorite. I asked for it.

She asked for it because she loved it the first time. So I made it for her the second time. She polished off the whole plate, the bowl, whatever.

I was so tipsy.

And then I was like, so how was it, Iza?

She was like, hmm. It felt like this came in slo-mo, by the way. It's like one of those moments where it came out of your mouth in slo-mo.

Just like, it was better the last time.

Yeah. And I think I was actually licking the bowl. Yeah.

Yeah.

But do you know what? I love how honest you are. I didn't go home crying.

No, but yeah, cooking and a musician. I love playing piano, singing, guitar, especially with you.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I screamed like a dying, drowning cat.

No, no, no. I kind of love that though. It's very Alanis Morissette.

Yeah.

Very Joni Mitchell.

Well, we'll maybe come with some of that to socials also this year.

I think so.

Why not?

I think that we should host like a karaoke, podcast karaoke.

Oh, so down for that.

But yeah, so Jack of All Trades really, Master of None, but yeah.

Master of All.

So anyway, just to wrap it up, we're tremendously lucky to get this one in here today. But also she did her homework, knows what we're talking about, watched the episode. So now I'm going to do a play by play and prompt questions.

Okay, let's go.

This is exciting.

All right. So in this episode, we get introduced to this Brooke woman that is the belle of the ball. She has always had her pick when it comes to eligible bachelors, and every Saturday is like her prom dance.

And we get introduced into the one she's chosen, and they're making this big deal about it because she's like, after all the men that she went through that were A-listers, who did she marry?

And she ended up marrying somebody that she had previously described more boring than exposed brick wall.

So, then we see our girls being like dressed for a funeral at this wedding, which I love, and towards the end of the wedding, Brooke is saying bye to the girls, and when she says goodbye to Carrie, she says, it's better to marry somebody that loves

you more than you love them. And Carrie is very pissed off about this, and it's always made me sad too. What do you think about that?

I think it's ridiculous. I think it's such an old school notion that it's like... Do you know what it is?

Do you know what it screams? Insecurity. It screams insecurity.

It screams that you potentially don't value yourself enough, and a lack of vulnerability. Like you're probably quite an avoidant.

If you're looking for somebody who loves you more, then you love them, and that's the kind of feeling that you're getting in the relationship.

That means that you feel like you've got to have like a shitload of affirmation all the time, and this person is going to be obsessed with you, and you know that if this were to ever end, that it would be on your terms.

And I think that that is such a bad way of looking at a relationship. Like I love falling in love. I love being in love.

So to have a relationship that's like void of that, I'd rather just be your friend. Like I'm not going to... Do you know what I mean?

Like that to me doesn't do it for me. I also think as well that like when you're in a relationship, definitely I think that love and being in love, like it does ebb and flow. I think that it's a very romantical term to be like, you're so in love.

And that means that for the whole relationship, you're always going to feel this like certain way. But the thing is, is that you choose love. You do choose love.

Like first of all, you have that like initial attraction. You have that initial chemistry and lust. It grows into more love because you can see that you've got the potential to fall in love with this person.

You then do fall in love with this person. But you do at the end of the day, choose this person to spend your life with. And that's a choice, you know?

And I think that there's something to be said about feeling mutually into that, than having one person that's just way more into you than the other way around. Like, ugh, itch. I'd hate it.

I agree.

And it also looked like he knew exactly what was going on. Because you could see what the dynamic was. You look after me, I'll be the trophy wife in your arm.

So at the end of the day, I think that's just gonna grow into a lot of resentment both ways.

Well, babe, it's like, it literally is a recipe for disaster. He's more likely as well, they're all like, oh, he loves you more than you love him and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what that's gonna turn into?

Infidelity on his half too. Both sides.

Yes, I agree.

Because she's gonna be like, well, this guy's a bit of a wet blanket and he's boring, but he can give me money. So yeah, I'm gonna go and get sex elsewhere and love and whatever. And he is gonna be like, this woman only wants me for money.

So I may as well go and fuck someone who wants it too. Yeah.

Or who respects me and feels me wanted.

He doesn't feel respect.

No.

I mean, I'd never normally say poor guy, but poor guy. Take it back.

Okay. So then in the next scene, Carrie calls Mr. Big and they're talking about, I think this is in her mind.

So she asks him, why did you get married? And he says, I was a fool in love and then I was a fool in divorce court. And that is why I will never get married again.

Okay.

And then she clocks that in and she's like, fuck, fast forward into her bringing this to the girls.

Because like, why ask the person who you're in a relationship with? And she's like, huh, you know what? I wasn't thinking about marriage, but the minute he said that that was off the table, it's all I can think about.

Can I date somebody that does not want to get married? What do you think about that? How do you feel about deal breakers?

What do you feel about it? We are deep in dog. What do you feel is the right conversation when maybe you're starting to think, this is my person, but we have different opinions about marriage?

Right, okay.

I think when it comes to marriage, let's be real, everyone has their own deal breakers. So like what might be my deal breaker might not be somebody else's and vice versa, okay? Yeah.

I do genuinely think though, that there's a lot to be said about compromise, but good compromises, right?

So if you really have always wanted to get married and you were like, no, I really want this for my life and it's all I've ever thought about, then you probably are not with the right person if they don't want to get married.

Right.

But if you decide to then compromise because you are like, but to be honest, I love this person so much and actually could I see myself just not getting married? I mean, we're still together.

We've still got everything together.

And getting the reassurance that this person is like, I want to be with you, but I just don't believe in the marriage. And I've actually had trauma around it.

Like I think his is pretty valid because he's already gone through it, gone through the shit.

You know, I think that if she's able to compromise, if you're in a situation like this and you're able to compromise, that's great, but do not compromise with expectations. So like, this is what I know.

A lot of women, like I probably say like 99% of women would do with a man that says, I don't want to get married.

And they're like, cool, cool, but you'll change your mind.

Yeah, cool, cool, but you will 100% want to marry me. But I think that that's always the thing, right? It's like, I can change him.

I'm different. I'm special.

Yes. Yes, I agree.

So compromise. And when you compromise, have it solidly in your head. If I stay with this person, I am 100% not going to get married because the thing is it could change.

Anything can change, but go into it with that. If you feel like you can genuinely do that, because otherwise it goes back to the resentment thing, right? You're like, God, he doesn't want to marry me.

I know.

I think that the problem is, at least with my brain, I want to call him a he because he is very unreliable. Because I'm like, hey, brain, did you get that message? Can we detach from this romantic idea?

Can you let it go? And the brain is like, please. Yes, we care about everything else.

Everything else that shows you that somebody is committed to you.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay, cool. Full throttle, like we're going in. And then literally it'll be three days in.

I'll be like, but what about marriage?

Totally get that. Do you know what I would say?

If like, if someone who is listening right now is like in this situation where they really want to get married, like you're a woman or whatever, you want to get married and you're with a woman or a man and they're like, not really for me.

Think about what is it about the marriage that you want. Okay. So is it the fact that you have a legal binding document to this person that you want or is it the wedding?

I want the dress.

Okay.

I want the ring.

So now do you know what I would do for you?

A party.

A fucking party.

Okay.

But can we always make sure that I get the ring and the dress?

Babe, I will give you the ring.

Okay. Good.

I've been dying to buy you a ring.

We don't even need a man.

No. But what I'm saying is that if that's what you want from your partner, I would say, do you know what a really happy compromise is? Have a fucking party.

Also, why can't you get engaged without even the promise of getting married?

If you want the ring on your finger or a ring, just in general, you don't actually have to have the legal binding contract that someone like Big was like, I was a fool in court. He wouldn't have to deal with any of that bullshit. True.

I also saw the other day on Facebook, there's a part of me that is definitely a male boomer.

So I was scrolling on Facebook and there was this post about this guy is not Steve Buscemi.

Love him.

It's somebody sort of looks like Steve Buscemi.

Was it me? I swear to God sometimes.

Also Angelina Jolie at one point looked like Steve Buscemi. So I can see that gradient happening between the four of you.

I kind of look a little bit more on the Buscemi side, but I'll go for that.

Love yourself. I don't think so. So he was saying something like, women, you think a man marrying you shows that he loves you.

You think that a man putting a baby in you shows that he loves you. You think that a man proposing to you, moving in with you shows that he loves you. No.

What shows that a man loves you or a person loves you is the fact that they are willing to change for you. They are inspired to be better for you and for them because they want to be that better man around you. And that is the only way of commitment.

So as long as I get that and the ring and the dress and the party with a registry for the presents.

Yeah. I mean, you can have the presents.

Of course. I mean, I don't need the party.

I couldn't agree more. Like, I do think that that's right. And I think someone's showing up.

Yeah.

Them showing up for you, showing up in ways that show that they care.

It's huge. Anyone can get married. Do you know how many divorces happen, guys?

I know.

Like, let's not say that marriage is like the be-all and end-all of love, commitment and care, because it's actually not.

Like, it just isn't.

Especially, yeah, I think society today also shows that divorce is so easy that people don't think twice. It's like, sure, if this will shut you up for the next two years, I'll do it.

Well, it's kind of how I think about, like, tattoos now. I'm like, so easy to get lasered off.

Is it so easy?

Yeah. I'm like, oh, fuck it. Yeah, I'll get that.

And then I just know in my head that I can get it off. I don't know. Like, do you know what I mean?

No, it's like, like, marriage is such a traditional concept. And like, I mean, you're talking to a lesbian here. So it's never something that I've dreamed about, if I'm honest with you, growing up.

I've always liked the idea of like a wedding and stuff like that.

But when everyone, when all the girls are thinking of like a white dress and a man, I was like, you know, because that was the only marriage that was available when I was like growing up, right? And the only thing that I could like compare it to.

So I don't think that as a queer woman, I've like grown up thinking this is really what I want. OK, it doesn't mean I never wanted to be loved or have a partner.

Of course not. Then there's the other side of this table during this chat of the girls at the diner, which is Miranda introducing the girls to the rabbit. She's like, who the fuck cares about marrying a man?

Love him, don't love him. Men are going to be obsolete in 50 years, because I just found the sex story. It always gets the job done and they start discussing about it.

I think it's very funny and I love to have you here for this, that Miranda was the one that said that men would be obsolete in 50 years. In 25 years, it took her to become a lesbian in the show.

So true.

So, and then I think Miranda takes the girls to show the bunny and the shuttle is like, but a bunny, like a by-bird, it doesn't call you on your birthday. It doesn't send you flowers and da-da-da-da-da. And then she sees that it's spanking.

I was like, all right, I'll try it.

Yeah.

What do you think about? Because I think obviously, like sex toys and masturbation when you are a gay woman is different. But like, do you think that that has changed sex life?

The way that you approach pleasure, the way that you approach intimacy with your partner?

Yeah. I think that it can be used as like a really positive thing. I think sex toys are great.

They are not a replacement though.

No.

But.

So you are with Charlotte. They don't call you.

Yeah. Like, yeah.

I would have never pictured you as a Charlotte.

Oh, no. I'm not a Charlotte. No.

Okay.

Yeah.

They don't call you blah, blah, blah. They can't obviously relate, like replace a partnership and like the fun that you get, like the dopamine high that you get from actual like sex.

What I think Charlotte is like having an issue with here, like she's like locked herself away with this sex toy, right? For God knows what, and she is like obsessed.

Yeah.

Do you know what that tells me?

What?

That this woman has been fucking suppressed her whole life.

I thought this woman hasn't been in a successful sexual encounter in a long time.

No, or ever. And not even with herself.

Yeah.

Right. So it's like, what a sad situation that she's like in her thirties here, right?

Yeah.

And this is the first time that she's actually truly exploring her body.

Yeah.

And being like, oh, this is really fucking good. And I think the thing is for her, again, it could like come down to like an insecurity thing. Like when you're sleeping with somebody else, there's like an element of like judgment that you're fearing.

You're fearing that they might not like fear a certain way about you. There's a worry that like you might not get by enough. They might not get hard.

Like all of these like different things. And then like you strip all of that away when you get a sex toy.

Yeah.

That will only happen to somebody who has been like so suppressed. But I think that like if you can use a sex toy or whatever to discover exactly what you love.

Yeah.

That is like the best thing that you can do. Because then you like teach it to other people. You can also introduce the sex toy into the bedroom as well.

Like I think it's like a massive enhancer.

I think I don't know why for me it brings the partners closer together. Because obviously there needs to be a conversation.

So you need to be at a certain level of comfort and, you know, comfortable with each other where you're like, okay, how do you feel about this? It's truly like very good communication.

Yeah, 100%. And also it is just fun. Like let's just label this way to spade.

Like it's really fucking fun.

Yeah.

You can like really play around with it. And I think that like a woman knowing what she wants is the best thing you can. Like the guy isn't going to know.

Come on.

Yeah.

Like you've got to tell them. And the same goes with the girl, by the way. Like if I slept with a girl right now, she's not going to know exactly what I like.

Yeah.

You know, so I think that it's like, if you truly know what you like, then like fucking hats off to you.

Like just keep doing that. And also from like a queer woman's perspective as well, there are lesbians that don't even like using sex toys.

I mean, yeah. I listened to your episode of Hear Me Out, where you said the deal dos and the deal don'ts.

Deal dos and deal don'ts. Yeah.

So a deal do was like, yeah, take charge in saying what you want. And a deal don't was don't bring anything niche without consent.

Yeah.

100%. Yeah.

Don't go doing something weird without asking them first. But again, because that communication is actually really cool. It's really nice to be able to have that.

For me, as a queer woman, I think I would still say that sex toys are still, they're not a replacement, but they are just an enhancement. I could have sex all day long with you without a sex toy.

Yeah.

And it's still sex. I think loads of people are like, oh, lesbians have to have this thing because it's like, they don't have the man, so they've got to use this thing. Do I love a strap on?

Absolutely fucking yeah. Yes, I do. But I think that like, that's the main thing.

It's like, you can, I think with Charlotte, like in particular in this like situation.

Yeah.

I mean, like she's so fucking uptight as it is anyway. Yeah. And there is no wonder why she is because this woman hasn't probably had an orgasm her whole life.

I mean, she looks so relaxed when they did the intervention though.

Well, then they probably shouldn't have done it.

They should have just left her in there.

She was having fun.

Yeah. I mean, like everyone is almost like being like a horny teenage boy. Yeah.

You know, just have fun with it.

Okay. So then another narrative that we're exploring or another storyline that gets explored on this episode is Samantha gets axed out by actually a British guy at the wedding. She goes out with him.

The guy is like, oh, you know, when I saw you at the wedding, I knew that I had to take you out for a beer or something like that. And she's like, oh, you're cocky, aren't you? And then he disappears because he sees some other woman.

And then after like 20 minutes, Samantha goes looking for him, realizes he's dropped her. She's on her way out and runs into the turtle, who is this guy that is like bold and apparently famous for good investments and bad breath. Yeah, deal breaker.

Massive.

So he also seems to be quite boring, but he is completely like fascinated with Samantha.

And he's like, oh, please sit down. And they start talking. And Samantha's like, I'm sorry, but somebody needs to tell you your breath.

And she's like, oh, you know, I take this Japanese or Chinese Arabs for long life. And she's like, well, you know, it's going to be a very long life alone. She just, he cracks a joke and she's endeared.

I think she's feeling very low. So she decides to stay with him.

My first question is, what do you think about going out there where maybe you're not feeling the best and agreeing to go out with somebody that maybe you know is not somebody that excites you?

Good or bad, jump on that horse again and like, you know, shake it off or heal yourself before you do so.

First of all, have standards, right? There is something to say about having standards. But that being said, if you feel, this guy sounds horrendous, by the way.

I mean, he seems like a good dude.

He seems like a nice guy.

But I just mean the bad breath. Like for me, like that is the biggest deal breaker ever. There's no way I could even go near it.

Not near the halitosis, no way. But if you are on like a healing journey, I would always say like, do that alone. Like fucking do that alone, you know.

But there is something to be said about having just a bit of a shitty rebound, in the sense where someone that you know that you're not going to spend forever with, but somebody who can like help you boost that ego a little bit, you can have a little

bit of fun with, it doesn't need to be serious. You could kind of teach yourself that nothing has to be too serious. That's one side of me that says that. The other side of me is like, you can't, you can, if the framework is there, right?

So like, because like the problem with Samantha in this is that there's actually just no chemistry, right? So like, no matter what she does to him, there's no chemistry. If there is no chemistry, fuck it off, out you go.

Like don't waste your, why waste your time? Like for me, that is a time waste to get the rabbit out. Like, do you know what I mean?

Like that's a massive waste of time. But if that chemistry is really there, but this person is like, so not your type. And like you were like, what the fuck is going on?

If the framework is there, I do genuinely think that like, if you see a potential in someone, give it a go. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.

Well, I've been in like plenty of situations where like I've gotten with a girl and my life has kind of been in like a shambles and I've like not been in a good place and all this kind of stuff.

And they've like lifted me up and actually really helped me develop myself and the chemistry was there, right? So I wanted to like work for myself and for them like what we were saying earlier.

So like I've definitely been the project for some people. But ultimately, life is so short. And if you don't feel that like click with someone, just leave it behind, I would say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you think?

Are you thinking the same or?

The thing is that for me, this whole episode, the undertone of it is settling.

Like is Samantha going to settle for somebody that maybe she doesn't have that initial spark with, but like the whole thing is that she is dressing.

Never settle. Never settle.

But she is trying to dress up. Like she calls Carrie and tells her like, you have no idea what happened to me. My date did this, so I ended up with a turtle.

I think he is a cute fixer-upper.

Yeah, no.

No. Leopard never changes his spots. And if the spark is not there, no amount of helmet lang that I think she dressed him in.

Yeah, babe.

No.

No, settling is the worst because you know why?

I'd rather be alone because it's a constant reminder that you're not, like, say you previously have been in love and then you're with someone who is, like, nowhere near on that level.

It is that constant reminder that that person is in a scratch on someone that you were with before and that would make me, like, just tears on the floor.

On the subject of settling, I don't know if you've met my best friend, Melissa?

Um, does ring a bell. Yeah, does ring a bell.

So she always says if you even have to ask yourself the question, am I settling? You're settling. Do you agree with that?

A hundred percent.

In the words of Mellie, one hundred percent. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

One hundred percent.

One hundred percent.

No, like you are like you if you if you are settling, if you are asking yourself, am I settling? Is it bad to settle for that? Just shut the fuck up.

Like at that point, listen to your head. Yeah, because your subconscious is going. Yeah, this is not for me.

Yeah, because settling, what is the definition of settling? Someone who actually isn't that good for you, but they seem quite nice. Therefore, you're just going to kind of like let your standards down and be like, there you go.

But what you're doing there is that you're actually closing yourself off for opportunities where you could meet someone who gives you all of those things and you have that chemistry because that person is out there.

Like there are multiple people out there that will be able to give you that.

So the other storyline that tries to talk about settling is the fact that Carrie takes Stamford on her ballet date because Charlotte is an addict that has an international phone call, aka the Dead with the Rabbit, and they're talking about dating and

Stamford tries to make it about himself for a hot second and says, I am so desperate to find somebody that I put an ad on the newspaper to date somebody who looks like me, so at least I know they won't reject me. And when he showed up, he turned

right around, like not even the gays that look like me want to be with me. And Carrie is like, huh, you know, maybe we could get married because my boyfriend doesn't want to get married.

And apparently Stamford only gets his inheritance if he marries to a woman because his grandma doesn't believe in gay, doesn't believe in gay, doesn't believe in gay. Okay, verbatim, that's the line.

I love it.

What do you think about these two? Because they have a whole date with the grandma. Like Carrie goes upstate or wherever this woman lives with Stamford to pretend they are maybe seeing each other.

To see, yeah. To see if, you know, that that could work for the grandma. And at one point Stamford leaves and Carrie asks her questions about Stanny and the grandma says, Oh yes, darling, but like Stanny is so definitely a fruit.

Is that okay to say in this day and age?

Look, I'm not about to cancel on anyone that wants to make a joke. Like when it's written into a series and this woman in the series-

She's probably dead. I'm sorry if she's not.

RIP., come on, I'm joking. No, RIP. No, but she's a character, right?

And this character is homophobic. That is the character that she is playing, right?

And because that feeds into the storyline, if she's just kind of like calling him a fruit, it's in quite, I think for me, like coming from a gay person, like quite like a playful way. I mean, she could have said a lot worse.

It's quite a playful way of saying that. And it's obviously her, like just basically, like always saying in like a humorous way, oh, he's a fruit. Like, yeah, that for me is funny.

Yeah. And because, yeah, one, she could have said worse. I think that it's absolutely OK.

And I think, you know, it's very different, you know, seeing it within that context on there. That's, you know, her role. And that kind of plays into the story.

If like a person would just walk past me and be like, you're fruit. First of all, I piss myself because this is not going to offend me. But secondly, that's where you're a bit like, OK, well, that's like a targeted attack.

That's very different than her just saying it. Yeah. So I think I think it's fine.

Like, honestly, and what do you think about these two?

Because obviously, I think it's a joke. But like, what do you think about maybe people getting married for pragmatic reasons?

Like, well, it happens all the time. A love and a marriage, it's called.

I honestly, I keep thinking I should get married to my hairdresser because I would hope I would get my hair down for free. We have a beautiful collection of handbags between the two of us.

And he would understand that a big budget of our household would need to go into my fashion.

Well, you know what? Who's to say that marriage has to be as traditional as they say it is? If you find a connection with somebody who you are like sharing your life with, and you love them, but it's so platonic.

The only thing that I can say is that you are definitely closing yourself off to like fulfilling romantic relationships. But if you are so fucking sick of it, and say you're like 60 years old and you're like, I'm done.

I've had my marriage for like four years. I really don't want anything. I might go on a few dates or whatever, but I want to marry my gay best friend.

I want a companion. And if they really want that, and you know that that way it's a lot easier when one of you dies and things like that, you know, like I don't see a problem in it.

I'm going to put this on the table next time and go up for dinner.

I mean, Lavender marriages are real. Like that is the term of it. So a gay man marrying a straight woman, it's a Lavender marriage or two gay people, but like, yeah, different sex.

And I mean, they seem pretty fulfilled. It came from like back in the day in like Hollywood and like, you know, when you needed a beard. There's so many gay men that marry women.

Like it happens all the time.

Fair enough. Okay.

And then I think we're getting to like the last bit of the episode because Carrie is trying to make big jealous of something by telling him that a very young man that was about to come into a hefty inheritance, had proposed marriage to her.

And he asks her, what are you going to do about sex? And then she says, I have you for that. Then she is obviously still in her head about what he said about marriage, and they're making dinner at his place.

He is trying to get her to try a tomato sauce or something. Could be pesto, who knows?

It could be pesto.

Carrie's like, you know what you said about marriage? I think I might want to get married one day. And I honestly, I almost stood up and clapped for her.

Because I'm like, finally, girl, you said something that maybe you wanted from the relationship that he took away. But then Mr. Big acts like a very well-trained fuck man and says, I thought we were having fun.

I thought we were having fun.

He distracts her by making her try the sauce.

And then he's like, oh, you have something here on your lip and kisses her. And then Carrie's like, you know, some kind of yogi or Buddhist or something said, enjoy the moment because something, something. And that's where the episode ends.

Yeah.

Look, what do we think about that?

First of all, he undermined her and belittled her so much with that.

Right. He patronized her. I thought we were having fun.

I think that that's that's playing it down. Like, yeah.

But playing devil's advocate, do you think that maybe he is trying to save a tricky conversation knowing like, hey, I like you. I've said what I said.

He might be holding space for her. So almost not wanting to answer that question.

Holding space for her.

Oh yeah. Literally holding space, holding space. Like not necessarily actually wanting to like bridge that conversation again, because he actually is in a solid no anymore.

Right. But he could also be bread crumming her, which is not wanting to give her what she wants, but also not wanting her to leave. So that sounds like a bread crumb to me, babe.

Like more than anything, you are very much devil's advocate, and so am I, when I'm in the situation. When I'm out of it, I'm like, no. That's a bread crumb.

That's a bread crumb. But going back to what I was saying earlier, like the first initial question when I said about like compromise, like carry compromising or marriage, he could equally do the same thing.

You know, like he could genuinely see that, like, because if you are so in love with this person, you are head over heels. I've never loved anyone more. You are everything to me and I never want to lose you.

And this person is like, it's a deal breaker for me if we don't get married. Get fucking married. Like for me, like that's what I would do.

I don't always think that you should have to like compromise on like big things. I think children is a different thing.

Yes, I agree.

That is a different discussion. I feel like marriage. And again, like you said, you could compromise on whether you wanted to make it legal or not and actually just have the engagement in the wedding or just have the engagement.

Like I've always been like, I would just rather get engaged. I'm not even fussed about the marriage. I really love the engagement.

I love that. And that is a sign of commitment. You're like, I love you and I'm giving you a ring.

And everybody keeps congratulating you. All the time. I get congratulated until the day I die.

So that's pretty much the end of the episode.

And now we get to the part where I ask you, and even though you're not a licensed therapist, I think we all therapeutic each other enough so that you're going to be the therapist to the girls.

So I'm going to tell you what each one of them did the episode and then you tell them the therapy tip of the week.

So for Carrie, who got annoyed at this woman telling her about what a marriage, a better marriage looks like, which is marrying somebody that loves you more than you love them.

And then taking that breadcrumb and running with it, like it was a whole lot of bread.

What would you say to her? I'd say Carrie, darling. What was the first bit?

Because my brain is not working.

When Brooke said...

Oh, sorry. I would say to Carrie, you should never have to feel like you're compromising your love that you are able to give, because almost when you love someone so much, it's a deeper love for yourself too.

That is so beautiful.

Don't stay with the person that you just feel isn't going to leave you.

Think in your head and be able to heal yourself, heal your inner wounds of that vulnerability, know your worth, and then you will fall in love with that person who sees your worth and will not want to leave you just because you are who you are and

they fall in love with you and vice versa. I think that that's what she needs to do. And with the fucking breadcrumb, I'd be like, babe, Jo, what? Sometimes you need to learn from your mistakes.

And I do believe that people can change perspective as well. So I'm not big believer on shutting the door because somebody didn't give you that exact answer that you wanted at that time.

If you're feeling very drawn and there are so many positives, I think as well, if the good outweighs the bad massively, that's a really important thing.

And maybe wait until you've said, I love you to each other before you bring up the marriage.

Exactly. Also, not even, I think it would probably take me about four years to even, within a relationship, to even discuss marriage personally.

I mean, we've just welcomed you into the 30s club. Those years get shorter and shorter as you...

What's wrong with getting married when you're older? What's wrong with it?

True. I don't know. I think I look good.

You're only getting hotter.

You are literally aging like wine. Like you'll be fine.

I'll take it. Okay. So that's for Carrie.

Then for Charlotte, who completely could not handle a sex story. What would you tell... And here you're a sex therapist.

What would you tell a woman that things you know... Because she's having this conversation with Carrie during yoga, where she's like, you know, when you were the man, and he's doing everything right, and he's, you know, da, da, da, da.

But, you know, you don't finish. And like with the rabbit is like every single time. And I think that's what makes her not be able to give up.

To let go of the rabbit, right?

Because she thinks that... I would say to Charlotte, if you think that giving up the rabbit or reducing your time with the rabbit is going to hinder your ability to orgasm, then you need to work on your communication skills and your confidence.

Because when you're then in the bedroom with someone, let's work on like how you can discuss what you like, how you can bring a sex toy in. If you feel like that is like your thing, right? And you actually can't even orgasm without it.

Find a way to bring in to conversation with a partner. It doesn't need to be like a committed partner. It could just be a sexual partner.

Yeah. And I'd also say, Bravo, now you know what you want. Now you know what to ask for.

That's actually great advice.

It's like going to a restaurant and you don't know anything that's on the menu.

You don't know if you're going to like it. Whereas for me, I go to like my favorite restaurant where I've already revised that menu. I know everything that I want on there and I know that I'm going to have a great meal.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, you've put it beautifully. Yeah, either way, I'm eating.

What about Samantha who maybe agrees to go out with somebody who she's not attracted to because she's feeling low and then she thinks that she can fix him up to be somebody that she could see herself with?

I would just say you don't date a Barbie doll. Like when you fall in love with someone, I think that you've got to fall in love with that person. You've got to have that charisma.

You've got to be able to have that chemistry. You can't replace that. I'd also say, what is that deep desire within you to not be able to actually be alone right now?

Why do you feel like you've got to be with someone who you then treat as a project to give you compliments? Because do you feel like you're not able to actually give that to yourself?

Huh, another great piece of advice. Okay, and then lastly, Miranda, from whom I can only remember the...

Mwanda.

Mwanda.

Mwanda.

I can only remember her saying that men will be obsolete in 50 years, and she's super happy that, like, she doesn't need them.

She earns her own money, has her sex story, is happy, and then, uninvitedly, shows up at Charlotte's to throw an intervention.

That is classic Miranda. She is very much the definition of, when you point a finger, there are four pointing back at you. Like, she, like, she's very, very hypocritical.

Yeah.

Very hypocritical, because if she truly stood by, like, what she was saying there, she would be like, let Charlotte get on with, like, what she wants to do, girls.

Fair enough.

Come on.

And also, I think that that was just foreshadowing her being gay because she never felt a genuine attraction and chemistry and love and whatever with a man. So therefore, she was like, well, I don't need a man.

You know, it'd be like me saying, I don't need a man.

Yeah.

Because I don't like, yeah, because I need a woman. It doesn't mean you don't crave those things. That comes with the relationship.

Very good.

I'd say Miranda, you're gay, babe.

That is what I'd say to her.

And you would have saved her a marriage, the baby, a divorce. Yeah. Yeah.

In it.

She should have just come to me.

I'll let her know. Yeah. Thank you.

OK, so that's it.

Now, as a way to put a ribbon on the episode, I would love for you to talk to us more, maybe about your platform, what you have coming, what you're excited about, and any other piece of information that you think is worthy of sharing.

Of course. Well, thank you very much, darling. Yeah, with the Lesbian Supper Club Podcast, that's going full force for 2025.

Very excited about that. Got some incredible guests that are coming on as well. There might be an element of travel this year, which I think will be really exciting.

I'm so sorry, but this podcast is obviously very one-dimensional, but what you guys have thrived at is creating a community where you host events, and the merch is also pretty fucking sick.

The merch is really fun.

The merch is going to get like a complete actual rebrand this year. We're working with an amazing person on this, who's actually my sister, which is also great, and she's helping us all out with that.

So that's all going like, again, full guns blazing. I think for 2024 was a bit of a weird year. I think it was a weird year for everyone.

We're continuing doing our events, which builds this gorgeous community of the most beautiful women I have ever seen in my life. And I'm not even just saying that, genuinely. And it's mainly because you're there, darling.

I mean, no, I thrive.

I love this.

Yeah, we do. You get along well. Yeah.

And, yeah, I think that... And that's not to say, I mean, we are so incredibly proud of what we have built so far with this podcast and with the community.

And I think now is the time that we are elevating it to the next level, to be able to give back what we feel is going to really be impactful because the world is crazy. And in so many ways, it's also going backwards.

So we want to be as unapologetic and loud as possible. I think, yeah, loud is the word for 25.

I love it.

I think just honestly, more women, more podcasts, more this, more you, more rabbit and more rabbits.

Yeah. And more Ziggy's. Yeah.

I love it because honestly, as you know, I identify as a terosexual cisgender woman. And I love listening to the podcast. I love the events.

I love the merch. Yeah.

I mean, I think that probably, I mean, I'm going to make an assumption that a lot of your listeners are like straight women, but I could be wrong.

But we do also have a lot of straight people listening as well, because whether it's queer or not, it's all relatable stuff. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, we're not, we're not aliens.

I mean, I kind of feel like one sometimes, but we're not, you know, it's so similar. Like relationship dynamics are definitely different in some ways. But I think the conversations that are being had are all the same.

Well, thank you so much for coming on, Freya.

Thank you so much for having me.

I've had so much fun.

Yeah, me too. I will pop all the links to the podcast, the merch. You have an event coming up?

Yeah, we've got an event this month, baby.

I will pop it in the notes, too.

And your IG page.

Thank you so much.

Love you. Bye, guys.

I've had the best time. Bye.