Monogamy, Desire & Why We Want What We Can't Have — Episode 7 with Natassia Miller, Sexologist

About This Episode

In episode seven of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV sits down with sexologist and founder of Wonderlust, Natassia Miller, to unpack Sex and the City's "The Monogamists." They explore the defining the relationship conversation nobody wants to have, why women go cold on men until someone else wants them, what reigniting desire in long-term relationships actually takes — and why Carrie's three AM "stand still with me" moment is more heartbreaking than romantic.

What We Cover

• New relationship energy: when losing yourself in someone is biologically normal — and when it becomes a problem

• Why women need to stop waiting for men to define the relationship — and how to do it with confidence

• The blowjob boundary conversation: consent, communication, and what Charlotte should have said much earlier

• Monogamy in a big city: is it rarer, or do we just have more options to avoid committing?

• The fight, flight, freeze and fawn responses — and why so many women fawn instead of speaking up

• Why Miranda wanted Skipper the second someone else did — and what that says about ego vs. genuine desire

• How long-term couples lose desire and what the research says about reigniting it (hint: it starts outside the bedroom)

• The arousal gap: why women need 20-40 minutes to become fully aroused and we're having sex in 3-13

• Samantha as the show's only true feminist — and why she might be the healthiest of the four

About Our Guest

Natassia Miller is a New York-based sexologist and founder of Wonderlust, specialising in helping women overcome low desire and couples navigate mismatched libido. She runs the Reignite Desire Masterclass — a two-hour deep dive into rebuilding the foundation of your sex life — and is launching a membership community for women featuring live workshops and group calls. She also created the Wonderlust Intimacy Card Deck to help couples talk openly about sex. Find all her programmes and resources in the show notes.

Transcript

Happy Therapy Tuesday, guys. I am so excited to share with you this week's episode of On Just Like That, We Found Therapy. This week, we are discussing season one, episode seven of Sex and the City, The Monogamists.

I have the perfect guest for this episode, Natassia Miller. She is a New York Basicsologist who specializes in helping women in monogamous relationships find their spark back with their partner.

She was incredible, so much so that we ended up grabbing a drink last week when I was in New York and she's even more awesome in person. So please, if you think she can help you, do not hesitate to reach out.

I'll leave you the links to her Instagram page and some other fun stuff that she has going on on her website on the show notes.

And as per usual, don't forget to rate me 5 stars, share with your friends, and watch out on this podcast's Instagram page for some fun clips on this week's episode. Hope you guys enjoy it. I'll see you on the other side.

Bye.

Hello, everybody, and welcome, Natassia, how are you?

I'm doing well, how are you?

Very good, I'm very happy to have you here today.

Today we are here to discuss The Monogamists, season one, episode seven of Sex and the City. And for this, I have Natassia Miller, who is a sexologist and founder of Wonderlust.

So as per usual, I'll do a bit of framing around the episode, and then I'll prompt you with some questions that I think you'll be great for this episode. So in this episode, we see Carrie and Mr.

Big kind of like falling into this blissful honeymoon period. She's finally gotten the man that she thought was unattainable. They look so happy running around Manhattan.

She talks about how she has no sense of time passing by when they're together. Everything just sounds great. So much so that she seems to have dropped her best friends in the midst of having her dream relationship.

And she catches up with Miranda over the phone, and she's like, oh, I can see you Saturday because me and Big were going to do something, but I think something came up, so I'm free.

So my first question to you is, what do you think of some women that when they finally get a relationship, especially one that is as coveted as Mr.

Big was for Carrie, what do you think of some women that tend to forget that they had a life of their own, and then suddenly their life becomes their man's life, and their identity becomes their identity?

I don't know about the identity piece. I feel like that might be too soon even for where Carrie is, but I think it's absolutely normal for a new relationship energy to take up all our time. It's biologically, it's how we're wired, right?

So, I have been guilty of that. Honestly, all of my friends have very rarely... I generally see the people who are able to maintain like a really active social life beyond the new relationship that's going on.

I feel like generally it's people that aren't as swept away by the person that they're with, you know?

Yeah, I understand. But then, what do you say about, you know, a good old slow burn?

Yeah, and that can be great as well. I think I've always been really intense. So, for me, I've never really had the slow burn.

But I think even with the slow burn, eventually when you do couple up, then there is a period where you are inevitably spending all the time together. I think the problem here is that Carrie just jumped into it too soon.

Yeah. She kind of decided.

Yeah, she decided for the two of them that it was a new relationship and this was it, right? So, I think that's where the error lies. And I think I love Sex and the City, but I think it's such a...

It can be realistic, but it's also such a toxic example for us. Like, following her and Mr.

Bigg's relationship experience, I'm like, girl, I have already done a ton of what she has with the fuckboys and dragged myself through the mud, but she just took it on for too long.

Okay, interesting. So, what I'm getting, a reading between the lines is the advice is, there's nothing wrong with a passionate affair. You don't have to try to slow burn in, but make sure that everybody's on the same page.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, how many times have I met somebody and I was swept away right off the bat, but it's not exclusive and I'm aware of that.

And, you know, as much as you'd like to be spending Saturday night with that person, you do have to force yourself to go out with the girls, you know, when things aren't very clear.

Yeah.

So.

Okay. So then, this is how it happens for her, that she, because Mr. Big is busy that night, they go out for dinner with the girls and here we get a bit of a catch up of what's been going on with everybody.

Miranda closes super big M&A deal. Samantha is obsessed with finding a new apartment and then Charlotte is practically engaged.

And Charlotte is saying they introduce, again, a scene from this show that has lifted my mind, run free for all these decades, which is the blowjob tug of war.

They're fooling around in the guy's apartment and then the guy kind of like hints at the fact that he would like her to go down on him. And Charlotte is like, I don't do that. I don't do that.

I don't like it. And at the beginning, she seems to be like, I don't do it because I don't like it. It's not my thing.

And then she says, I have a very sensitive GAC reflex, never have liked it. And here I'm dying to know, like, how, like, what do you think about this? How common is it?

Because we know what we're working with. Yeah, GAC reflex is a thing that you need to take into consideration. What do you think about the way that he initiates it?

What do you think about the way that Charlotte navigates it? And then what do you think about the conversation? And when they all agree, like, oh, I only give it to receive it.

Okay, so awful the way that he does that.

I mean, pushing someone's head down is like...

Very 90s.

No, but it still happens. My single friends talk about it all the time, right? But I think there's also a lack of communication that happens along with that.

Because men will continue doing this if they don't hear from women that, like, not only is this something that they don't want, but it's disrespectful. And so it's a lot of educating the men to do this differently.

And I don't remember, I don't think that they had sex yet, but what she should have said was, listen, you pushing my head down and wanting a blowjob from me just feels very wrong. We haven't gotten there yet. It feels unnatural.

When I feel like I'm ready, I will tell you in the meantime, can we explore other things? Right? So I think it always boils down to communication.

And that's something that you see throughout the show that really drives me crazy, especially with, and I know we're going to talk about this later on, but with Carrie not communicating how she really feels with Mr. Big, right?

So it's the same thing with the blowjob. Like, if you're dating somebody who is forcing you, putting pressure on you to do something you don't want to do, whether that's a blowjob or something else, you need to communicate it on the spot, right?

Or if you feel a common... There are different ways that we react to this, right? And so generally, it's fight, flight or freeze.

Freeze is very common, but there's a fourth one called fawning. And fawning is something that a lot of women do, which means that in order to protect ourselves, we pretend that it's okay.

And this is what Charlotte kind of does.

And well, for me, I generally freeze. You know, if that happened to me in the past, like sometimes you'd be so shocked by the action that you would freeze. And for other women, it could be fawning.

So I would say if you encounter a situation where you're not able to communicate what it is that you want to say, just try to communicate it as soon as you quickly, like, get your act together and feel ready for it, right?

Yeah.

I think it's really important. But the other thing that I was going to say about it is Charlotte needs to learn how to not give, like, full-throated blowjobs. Like, the head of the penis is where the party's at.

You do not need to deep-throat. Like, learn how to give a hand job simultaneously. You know, I think there's so many ways around it.

And I don't blame you for only giving to receive. Like, that's totally okay. But if you have the Ick, you can't blame your partner for not retributing that, right?

Like, if you want them to go down on the menu.

Yeah. And Charlotte is like, yeah, so I don't want it either. So that's off the menu completely.

Yeah, I think she just needs to learn.

And this is for anybody who's listening and is like, I hate giving blowjobs. It's like, I get it. It's like Samantha says, it's called a job for a reason.

Yeah. But you can also learn how to give a massage at the same time that you're just at the top where, you know, it makes it easier for your gag reflex.

Okay. I wish you would have been there. So they all kind of like share their experience on the matter.

Everybody says where they stand. And then they're walking out and Samantha spots Mr. Vagan.

It's like, Oh, isn't that Mr. Vagan? He goes like, Oh yeah.

Let me go say hello.

It's such a fucked up scene.

Oh, it broke my heart. She was so happy. She was looking gorgeous.

She approaches him because obviously, you know, in her mind, everything's hunky dory. Everything's still blissful honeymoon period. It's like, Hey, how are you?

And you can see how she starts getting all the messages. And then she braves up to say, Hey, are you on a date? He's like, Well, sort of.

And then you can see that she's completely caught by surprise, obviously very pissed off. She loses her cool, which goes very much in everything that she is. And she becomes around Mr.

Big, that she always puts on a bit of a personality or she needs to be a specific kind of woman that is aloof, not too bothered. And she walks away and says to them like, Unbelievable, he's dating other women.

And then she says out loud, and I love that you live in New York for this. Because she's like, in a city with so many possibilities as New York has, was monogamy too much to expect?

And this, do you think that by living in a big city, monogamy is a lot rarer?

No, I don't think so. I think it's settling down that can be rarer, right? Because you have so many options, so you're going to want to date around.

But I, because I do think that there's a distinction between like monogamy and just dating multiple people at the same time. Like, I think, yeah.

I think the one thing that I see here in New York is that because you're in a city where there's the best people in the world, the most competitive, you have so many beautiful women who are killing it, and men as well, like you're always worried

about, can I meet somebody better the next time around, right? Like, so you want to leave your options open. That's an issue. Now, I think in her case, again, like she just jumped into it too soon.

Like, it's not something that is wrong for you to expect. It's just that you've decided to date the fuck boy. You know when the guy is toxic.

Yeah. Like, you know when the guy is toxic. You know, just acknowledge it.

Acknowledge that you have a type or that you need to move on and find somebody. There's so many great guys in the city.

Yeah. I love it because she does say, like, I run so far with my feelings that I did not realize that I was standing with all those feelings by myself. And she feels stupid.

I can see where she is. That is like, obviously, it sounds like this. They've been spending every waking minute together.

So when has he had the time?

So normally, that conversation of defining the relationship or asking, especially being the woman, if you are a bit more conservative or you stick a bit more into the, I like the man to lead, you don't want to be the one that says, hey, should we be

exclusive? So I think she probably didn't have that communication because she was like, hmm, not my job and everything's going so well. Maybe it was part scared because I was like, I don't want to ask this question. But also like, there's no way.

So I feel for her.

I understand. But I think it's so important for you to speak up to for what you want. And as women, like at this stage of history, yeah, we need to throw that out the window.

Yeah, you know, yeah, we're in charge. Yeah, we're in charge. I mean, men have such a hard time.

Men usually have a harder time asking for what they want in the relationship, or I mean, in the sense that they have a harder time consolidating. And like, there's always this running joke, right?

Like being asked to marry and to formalize the relationship, all of these things, like for them, it could be a little bit slower. So I think it's okay if the woman places pressure, so to speak.

It's a way for you to also see if you're not going to be wasting your time.

Yeah. So you think that you'd rather recommend somebody, you know, takes the little horn, the bull by its horns and ask the question rather than just not ask him because some men get scared.

So you're playing a game where you don't want to push because you might scare him.

I think there are ways that you can approach the conversation.

But men, if you're not going to be nagging about it, but if you're confident and you're placing value on yourself and you know that you are somebody who is worth being with and you're not going to sit around for somebody to just make a decision at

their own time, then when you position it that way with more confidence, they'll respect you more for it. I think that's a big issue with her is that she doesn't, right? She tries to play it really cool.

She's also really naïve, like who has a business dinner with a woman on a Saturday night, right? Like she didn't know initially that it was a woman, but she saw it was a woman with her back to her.

Yeah.

Like you initially, you're going to approach that dinner table. I would have been pissed. Like I wouldn't even have given him the benefit of the doubt.

I would have already known what was going on.

I don't think I would have walked over. I would have called him pissed afterwards.

Yeah, of course. But like I think her problem is she tries to act too cool about it. And it's so important to voice what is bothering you.

Yeah.

So, okay. Then we get a little blip of like Sex and the City old school, which is like the confessionals. And I'm curious to hear your point of view from your work field, because they start putting little clips of strangers describing monogamy.

Like, of course, I'm monogamous, but like, of course, in my definition of monogamy, sex with prostitutes is allowed.

And then somebody else is like, well, me and my husband are very monogamous, but like in the 60s or the 70s, he's a gay man and says like, we don't exchange numbers or fluids. Then somebody else is like monogamy is boring.

And somebody else says that monogamy means that you don't have to shave your legs.

Considering that like the fluids, numbers, et cetera, can be now inside, or sex with prostitutes can be inside the definition of somebody's relationship, as long as everybody's consensual, fine.

But the one that screamed to me is like monogamy is boring. What would you say maybe to somebody who is in like a very loving committed relationship, very old school monogamous by the book, and they think that they fall into a rut or it's boring?

Is there a way out of that?

Yeah, I mean, definitely so many ways out of that. I think when you're with someone for a really long time, you're most likely going through the same motions when you have sex.

Usually for straight couples, it's like you kiss a little bit, you have maybe some oral and then you go straight into penetration and there's barely any seduction. Like no seduction happens anymore.

It's like you look at each other and you're like, do you want to have sex? And so I think these are the moments where it's so important for you to go back to the beginning. Like what are the things that you need?

And I'm relaunching our Desire Masterclass. So I cover a lot of this in there for anybody that might be going through this and want some help.

But you really need to think about what are the great sexual experiences that you've had and what are the contexts that made for that great sexual experience, right? How was the seduction like? How are you feeling?

What was your state of mind? What was the relationship dynamic like? What were the things that you did during sex?

What was going through your mind? And how did it end? What happened after?

I think when you get really clear on what are the contexts that work for you, you're able to bring that back into your life. So seduction is such an important part of it. And creating new shared experiences together.

Because you've been with someone for so long, you assume that you know everything about them. And you end up kind of, you know, date night is usually just going to a restaurant. You're not looking for new experiences.

And they did a study where couples who try new things together are 36 times more likely to have sex that day than couples who don't.

And the great news is that this actually, this sexual and relationship satisfaction, like persists over time when you are consistently creating new shared experiences. So it's not about doing something different in bed.

It really is about just doing new things together outside of bed.

Can I ask you, is that, from your professional point of view, equally important for females and males?

For males, it tends to be easier for you to just get in the mood because they have what we call spontaneous desire. So they realize that they're turned on and right away, they feel the arousal.

And for women, it tends to be the other way around where you need, usually, more of an emotional connection and then touch begins.

And then through the touch and the emotional connection, you realize, oh, you become aroused and then you realize that you're turned on. So it takes a little bit longer. And for men, it takes one to five minutes to get an erection.

And for women, it takes us 20 to 40 minutes for our vulvas to fully become, quote unquote, erect, fully engorged with blood. And our vulvas, our clitorises, are the same size as penises are on average.

So we need more time to allow the blood to flow in and to become fully aroused. But we have sex on average 3 to 13 minutes. So that doesn't give us enough time.

We're not warmed up enough. So it's like such an important thing. You create these new shared activities outside of bed.

You take the time to seduce, to warm up, to do the foreplay. Foreplay begins when the last time you had sex ends, right? That in and of itself already allows for a much better sexual experience.

You don't need to include new props or do new positions. It's just changing other contexts that take place.

Okay. So PSA announcement for any men listening. Yes.

To just spend more time before the actual penetration.

Absolutely. But Esther Perel talks a lot about this. Making sure that you also have time for yourself is really important.

I talked to enough moms who, because they're so overwhelmed with kids and taking care of the household agenda, they don't give themselves any time to do what they actually like or to do any activities where they feel embodied and really connected

with themselves. So I think it's so important for you to cultivate that and have your own activities that are separate from your partner. It's that space that you create. It's an art in a way.

Yeah, okay.

So we switch on to Carrie doing all the nurturing to herself or coping with the new reality, which is they're not exclusive and she just got the news.

And she is at with Stanford, who in the 90s in this show, he is portrayed as like a very topical, typical gay man by almost like a caricature.

And Stanford has like a very off the cuff like, well, darling, you know, like monogamy is out of the way because the new millennium is coming in.

So of course, like nobody believes in monogamy, and then they run into Justin Theroux, and he is most famous, 30 under 30 or something ridiculous like that, very cocky, hits on Carrie and even Carrie says like, I didn't even feel the rush that I

normally get from being validated by another male, because she's so sad about Mr. Big not loving her the way she wants to be loved or not choosing her the way she wants to be chosen.

I think then she's back home, and she gets a phone call from him, and he is, I think, you know, seeing how bad the damage is. He's being very sweet. He's like, we still aren't for Saturday.

And ends the conversation by saying, I miss you, baby. And during all this, Carrie, in her voiceover, says, I was trying to act so cool, like it didn't bother me, but it's so obvious that it bothered her so much.

And this is what you were talking about earlier. How do you think that is the best way when you're caught in something where you think that you have so much at stake? Like, I think Carrie is willing to hold on to Mr.

Big however, whichever way he wants to show up for her, even if that's maybe not being exclusive, as soon as she thinks they should be. How would you say that maybe it would be a good way to have that conversation?

I think she confirmed too soon. She sounded too enthusiastic, especially after everything that had happened. Like, maybe don't answer the phone every time that it rings.

That's something that I notice all the time watching these 90s shows. I'm like, I'm so glad I don't have a phone at home anymore. Do you remember how that was?

Yeah.

And like not have an ID caller.

Exactly. No, I think she messed up on that. I really do.

She should have played it a little bit cooler, for sure.

I think it would have been like, how was your date? Like very, very...

Yeah, exactly. I agree. Yeah.

To make him appreciate you more, you know, and not take you for granted. Like, the way she spoke was just so... She just gave herself in too quickly, I think.

Yeah, very submissive.

Do you think that it's a sign of how unhealthy the relationship is probably bound to be if, you know, you're not, you don't feel comfortable enough to say what it's really in your mind and what you really want?

Yeah, I mean, she's and it shows, right? Like they went on for what, like 10 years of torture.

Yeah.

So even the wedding itself was chaos.

But then she gets the penthouse, amazing walk-in wardrobe and she gets the ring.

And then he dies, you know? That was too much torture anyways.

Yeah. Okay. So then, you know, as a good girlfriend does, Miranda takes the hit and they go out for dinner.

And Carrie is admittedly obsessing over the conversation, over everything that happened. She's just like, Miranda, do you think that him saying, I miss you, baby, means like mea culpa? Like, I fucked up.

No, it doesn't.

No, it doesn't.

No, he's just, you know, there's this saying in Portuguese where you're like, just making sure that all of the plates that are turning, they that are spinning there, you keep spinning them.

So it's like suddenly, like this one's been spinning for too long and you to like get in touch with it again and like spin it again. Like keep them kind of, you know, it's like what he's doing with her, right?

He's just trying to keep all of these different women holding on. And so he's a player. That was the whole thing.

OK.

And then Skipper walks by with this lovely woman. And then they have like a quick conversation where we understand that not only she's not stupid, like she's good looking, has a good job, is sweet.

And they seem to have a really sweet thing going on, her and Skipper. And they walk away and Miranda's like, he looks good. Has he been working out?

What's that? Like, what is it about Miranda, feminist that she is, that she suddenly wants Skipper the minutes that somebody else wants him?

It's ego.

She does love the ego.

She does. And like, she's another case where she never really fell in love with anybody that she was with, right? Like her, her story, her love story is actually pretty sad.

So for her, it's definitely ego.

Okay. And then I think we follow Skipper home. He's having sex with Allison, phone rings.

He lets it go to the, like the message machine and he, it's Miranda. So he picks up and he's like, Oh, I can't talk right now, but yeah, yeah, for sure. I'll see you.

Hangs up, breaks up with Allison. And Allison's like, are you breaking up with me? Well, you're inside of me.

He's like, yeah, the woman that I love just called me and she wants me back.

He's delusional just like, just like Carrie.

Exactly.

You know, at no point did she say that, you know? Also, like another thing of the 90s that drives me crazy is that the machine coming on for the whole house to hear. That is so unnecessary.

That was so fun.

It was like a fucked up Russian roulette.

I know. Totally. Yeah.

The new version of that is when you're plugged into the Bluetooth and you have the occasional like new message from.

Yes. And then I think, you know, they switch to the next scene and Charlotte is having the tug of war again with her almost engaged person. Like they're just back at their place.

He tries again to initiate a blow job and she's like, no, and I'm sorry, I never want to do it, blah, blah, blah. And then he kind of hints at the fact because, you know, this episode is all about monogamy.

Well, I intend to get a lot of blow jobs in the future and I would like you to be there, but if not, I'll have to get them somewhere else.

I think he's hinting at the fact like, maybe we can have something super stable, but I'll get my blow jobs from someone else.

And then they have this kind of discussion where Charlotte is like, you're willing to give up a wonderful woman, the mother of your children, and a beautiful wife because I don't want to do this.

And would you really want me to do something that I don't want to do? What do you think of this discussion? I mean, I think they're obviously not compatible, but I'm just curious, where's the compromise there?

Yeah, sorry. What do you think about the reasoning of the two?

I think she's also delusional. She's already placing so much pressure on this relationship, the mother of your children, the blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, have they even had sex yet?

Yeah.

You know, it's like she's just checking the box here.

I think it's a conversation that would have never happened in real life, like that early on is like, you know, if you're not going to give me... like we can still stick together, but I'm going to need to like find my blow job somewhere else.

I think it's really important for you to be honest about your kinks and the things that you really enjoy in bed.

And if sex is something that's important to you, sexual compatibility is crucial for a relationship then, if you want to be happy, if you want to be faithful.

So I like as messed up as this conversation was, I think he did them both a favor to have this, to be open and honest about it. Like, this is what I like. I know I need to receive it from my partner.

And there are plenty of women out there who do like to give blow jobs. So he saved her a lot of time and headache.

Yeah. Then I think the next scene is Carrie and Big at this Saturday plan that they were doing, which is a party at one of Mr. Big's friends.

And as soon as they walk in, this woman flaunts herself and like falls onto Mr. Big's arms, like kisses him in the lips. And then she's like, where have you been?

And you still have my passport. Like you can see that there's definitely something that has gone down there that was probably not very formal, but a lot of fun.

And then Carrie's just like getting more ammo and more ammo, and she's getting more and more pissed. Then Mr. Big is trying to, I guess, make it up.

Someone's like, oh, I want you to make someone very special to me. He's like, Julia. I was like, not Julia.

And then I think Mr. Big says, no, this is Carrie. She has a column called Sex and the City and the New York Star.

It's like, well, you're dating the right guy to know about sex. The whole thing is just like a car crash that keeps getting worse and worse. And then Carrie chooses this moment to make a scene and be like, no, this is not for me.

This is not what I want. How dare you? And she just, I think he says, please, do you really want to do this here?

And she's like, what? This is who I am. Like, I don't know.

She gives a vague response. And then he says, what do you want from me? And she says, nothing.

I want absolutely nothing from you, which is such bullshit. And then she walks away. But you know, she is Carrie.

She is dramatic. She doesn't speak in like clear terms. And off she goes to meet Stanford at this party with Justin Theroux.

So what do you think about how she handled that?

She was way too ch- like, a girl comes up to your date and kisses him in the mouth, she didn't react to that at all. That was what was most shocking, you know?

I think this whole trying to play the cool girl and being the chill girl is like, guys like some craziness, they, you know?

That's what a Brazilian says a lot.

And I'm a chill Brazilian, so, you know, but I think she, I think she, she should have reacted right there, she should have already positioned herself right there, like when that kiss happened, you know?

And then when he says Julia, which is the name of the woman that he was on that dinner with, is like, oh man, I don't know, she just kept on giving him too many opportunities to... And he was very clear, he's like, well, what do you want from me?

Like, clearly he's like, I don't want anything serious right now. But she decided to hold on to it for too long, so. Yeah.

Do you think that a relationship is doomed when the woman, and I'm sorry, because I'm going to be like very cisgender, heterosexual, by the old book.

Do you think that a relationship is doomed if the woman is more invested than the man?

No, I don't think so at all. In my case, I was more invested than my husband was in the beginning, and now we're together. Like, it's fine.

And do you think it flips?

Do you think like there's an ebb and flow?

I think there's an ebb and flow in the relationship. There are times in the relationship where you're going to be more invested than they are, and then they're going to be more invested than you are, just like anything in life.

Like, there's never a perfect balance.

Yeah.

I think it helps when the woman is invested, because women are the ones who honestly dictate how things go.

Like, you know, remember that big fat Greek wedding movie, and it's like, the man is the head and the woman is the neck, is one thing that they mentioned. And it's like, it's true. Like, we're the ones who dictate the storyline.

So, and it goes back to our conversation in the beginning. So it's like, you don't, you're obviously, there's a limit to how much pressure you can put on someone, and you don't want to seem desperate.

But I think it's important for you to position yourself, because then it shows that you value yourself, and that you have confidence. And I think that's what's lacking here. And so you can be more invested in the guy.

I've seen so many cases besides my own, where the woman is more invested in the beginning than the guy is. Men are just slower. But eventually, tables will turn if it is meant to, if it makes sense, right?

Okay.

So then my next question is, because I'm also conscious of the fact that they haven't discussed whether or not they're exclusive, they haven't discussed what's okay and what's not okay. So in Mr. Big's defense, like, yeah, he did nothing wrong.

They still hadn't defined what that was. They're hanging out. They're getting to know each other.

And then this, to me, was, I'm sorry to say, pathetic. Carrie goes to the party with Stanford, runs into Justin Thurow.

I didn't even know it was Justin Thurow, by the way. Now you're mentioning his... I don't know.

I think so. I didn't ever Google it.

I'm pretty sure. He's one of my favorite cameos. So he, and he appears again, as Carrie's boyfriend that cannot get it up, and is like the son of a sexologist or something like that.

Oh, really?

I don't remember that. Okay.

Anyway, so she goes to this party, runs into him, and he's all over her, and he's like, oh, I'm completely obsessed with you. Like I'm in love with you. Will you come home with me tonight?

She's like, yes, just give me a moment to make a phone call. And she does the equivalent of posting a story on Instagram for your crush to see, of having a man all over you.

But she is so shameless about taking the phone and being like, I'm at a party, fabulous party, and I have this man that asked me to go home with him. He appears like, his name is Jared, say hello, Jared. Hello, Jared.

And then Mississippi was like, what the fuck? Like, stop with the playing. She asks him to meet her.

She's very bitchy about the way she asks, which that I kind of liked. And they kind of miss each other until they find each other outside.

And this to me is a point where Carrie asks to find the relationship, but she does it in a very romantic writer's way.

Right.

They are in front of each other and it's like, what do you, okay, you have me here. What do you want? And she goes on this one.

She's like, so I've gone out there, done the merry-go-round, done the revolving doors. And I finally feel like I found somebody with whom I want to stand still with. Will you stand still with me?

And he asks, so you asked me out at three in the morning to ask me if I would stand still with you. I.e. in the mind of Carrie, she's asking very romantically, can we be exclusive?

And then the fuck boy will give just enough for her to be happy, but not sign the contract. So he grabs her and stands still with her. And she's so happy.

So what do you think of this scene?

Oh, man, I feel so sorry for her in this scene, because who does that?

You know, I was like that. My therapist is working very hard with me in making me ask more clearly about the things that I want and need. But I used to give hints.

Yeah, but I think the way that she did it at a party calling him, it's, you know, three in the morning asking for that, you know, at three in the morning in the middle of a park.

Like, that's what I mean, right? Yeah, that is desperate right there. I like the way that she put it, and I think it's fine.

It just in a different context would have been better. Yeah.

And when you know who you're working with, like if this is a fuckboy, you're going to have to say like, no, no, no, I mean, you need to get rid of all the side pieces.

Yeah, she it's like the song from the Cranberries, like fool me, fool me, go on and fool me, you know, like that's what she wants.

So so I do feel sorry for her in that moment because I'm like, okay, as beautiful and poetic as this ask was, you know that he doesn't have his heart in it.

You don't even want it to happen in that context with the way things have unfolded in that same night, you know, and go home with a guy, like have good sex and like, yeah, get yourself out of this spell.

Have him call you, you know, like he didn't even run after her when she left the party.

Yeah.

So I think that says it all. He wasn't, he wasn't apologetic.

No, I think she gave him the perfect way out.

Yeah.

Which was like, you know, give me a half-ass sign that we're on the right track, even though I know you're not ready to do the right thing.

Yeah.

Okay. So that's the end of the episode. And I think when I first saw it, or one of the very first few times that I saw it, I thought that was so romantic and now I see it and I am enraged because I'm just like so pathetic on her side.

And also, that doesn't mean shit. You haven't asked for anything, so he's not given anything.

Yeah.

But okay, so to wrap it all up, I'm going to ask you what your advice would be to each one of the girls.

So to Carrie, what would you say to somebody that I'm guessing, you know, maybe as your friend, maybe as her sexologist, she would come and say, you know, I'm having this amazing connection with this man because I think she truly believes that they

understand each other and they get each other so well. We have great sex. I'm obsessed with him. We're not exclusive.

I run into him in another date and then this happened and then that happened. What would you say to her knowing that she hadn't voiced any of her needs, wants, concerns to this man?

Communication is the foundation of it all. You need to align where you're at, how you feel, what you expect out of this, and until that's not communicated, you can't expect anything out of the relationship. I love that.

She could have saved all of the headaches of asking Miranda to interpret everything that he had to say because he is the person she needs to be talking to, not Miranda.

Yeah, absolutely.

Poor Miranda. I don't think she's a reference either, you know, with her complications and going back and forth. They're like, everybody's just trying to figure it out.

I think the interesting thing about Sex and the City is that I remember when I was younger, and I had always watched like a few episodes here and there.

I didn't realize that it was women in their 30s in New York City in the 90s, which is so forward for the time, you know? And so, if today it's still taboo, I mean, it's less so in New York, but it still is.

You know, talk to my friends in their 30s who are single, they want to meet somebody. Not everybody in the world does, but like they specifically do, and they do feel this pressure of like, I'm in my 30s, I'm dating in the city.

And I think that if there's a benefit for you to be in your 30s, is that you have more experience under your wing.

And I think that can bring more confidence and more, an ability for you to really stand in your value in a way that you didn't in your 20s, right? Like your 20s, you're fucking up here and there and blah, blah, blah.

I think in your 30s, not that you don't fuck up, but I think it's just an opportunity for you to be more graceful with yourself and for you to know your worth.

Yeah.

I said know your value before, but it's know your worth is what I meant. And that's honestly why younger men also like dating older women, because they really enjoy that sense of confidence that younger women don't have.

So I feel almost like Sex and the City, and now watching it a year and a half ago, the whole thing in my 30s in New York City and realizing the whole context of it that I didn't realize when I was younger, I'm like, dude, I feel like they are not

giving any of these women whatever benefit I see myself and other friends who are in their 30s. And if I were to be single again and dating, that you do have somebody in your 30s.

All the things that I just mentioned, it's like, I almost feel like they're giving them, it's like they're in their 20s and still learning.

Yeah, I think there's that mentality of scarcity and that makes you settle and that makes you become cynical and that makes you be janked around.

But I just, her and Mr. Big is like something I just don't wish upon anybody. You know, well, we've all had a big, but like you let go of the big much earlier.

It's such a red flag, you know? So, I don't know. That's like, I just, I want to hug Carrie.

Yeah, this is the whole purpose of my podcast.

Let's go and bury all the Mr. Bigs and all of your toxic exes. Like he's not your Mr.

Big or if he is, that's not a good thing. That's no longer a good thing.

Yeah, I think it's just so important, especially if you do feel the pressure of like settling down in your 30s. It's like, can you like, where are the good guys at?

Like the guys that you probably always just rejected for some reason, like Kate Hudson mentioned this in an interview with Alex Cooper, where she said, listen, like you're the one can you need to understand that he may not look like that Pinterest

board. Yeah, I listen to that. Yeah, like be honest about that. And I think that's something that can really shift how you date, is when you realize that it's okay, that he's not going to look like your Pinterest board.

Fair.

Yeah.

Okay, what about Charlotte?

This one, I'm dying to know how you would take this on, because I'm curious to know, obviously, you know, she would come to you and she would pay good money, and she would be like, I need help, because like I've met my future husband, even though, as

you said, they probably haven't slept together fully yet. But he is really keen on me going down on him. And this is just something that I don't do.

For me, before anything, I just feel like she also jumped into it too quickly by placing all this expectation that he was the one before what is seemingly they had no sex. And so it's just unrealistic.

And I think it's like, okay, like take a moment to value what it is that you also want out of this relationship. And what's the kind of sex that you want to have in your life?

And if he is placing this pressure, you need to kill this behavior at the root. Like, have this conversation with him right away. And how he reacts to it is going to be very telling.

If a guy does not respect your no and keeps pushing your boundary, or keeps trying to find a way around it like he did with, okay, well, I'm going to have to find it somewhere else, then move on to the next guy. You know?

Again, it's all about knowing your worth, like standing in your worth.

Which I think that she did. She was like, you know what, bye.

She did, but I think that she wasn't willing to have the hard conversation earlier on, like before introducing him to all the friends, like before, you know, it's, it's, I think she should have had that conversation with him earlier.

Yeah. Okay. Then on to Miranda, who, you know, she has sex with Skipper and then Skipper is like, oh, I'm so happy you called.

The minute you called, I broke up with Alison, blah, blah, blah. Miranda is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, what are you talking about?

I'm, I don't think that I'm ready to have any serious relationship yet. And then Skipper does stand up and like, it's like, I'm not your stud on call or dial a fuck buddy or something like that. He has like all this one-liners that are hilarious.

Like, go figure out what it is that you want and I hope you get it, bye.

What would you say to Miranda who went after a guy that she rejected a thousand times, or if this is episode seven, seven times, and then wanted him the minute he was with somebody else, only to know that she could get him?

I think she needs to date around more.

You know, I feel like Miranda is, because she's so focused on her career, it's like she doesn't give herself, she's too cynical about the dating scene, and so therefore kind of becomes like the small pool that she's working with.

And I think she needs to open up that range of like men to date, and it really just boils down to her ego too, like purely, right?

You know, I blame her less, because I feel like this is more on him, like he should have managed his expectations, he clearly misunderstood, and that was on him. So yeah, I feel like hers is like the chillest of all of them.

Well, no, actually, Samantha's is, we haven't gotten to Samantha yet. But you know, I think it's like I get less defensive when a woman is like being a quote unquote player, because like, we get fucked all the time by men.

So there's also like a small part of me that's like, go Miranda, you know?

Yeah, 100%. Because I kept thinking like, how many times has that happened on the other, like, with the roles switched?

Which is so typical, like the guy gets offended, but when he does it, it's totally normal.

Yeah. Like, I don't know what gave you that impression. Yeah.

Um, okay. And then Samantha, yeah. I love that because this episode was about monogamy.

She had zero storyline other than she could not be monogamous even about her realtor. And that's the storyline. So I don't know if you have any notes on her or you would rather keep the notes to skip her.

She's my favorite of all of them.

Yeah, she is because for me, Samantha is the only true feminist who doesn't give a fuck and says what she thinks and is sexually open and explores and doesn't care about what other people's opinions are.

I think she embodies what I think Sex and the City should really be about. The other three, it's just like a hot mess, and Samantha is the only one that has her shit together.

She's successful, has her own money, she dates around, it doesn't care, she doesn't get emotionally involved. Occasionally, she does, but she's strong enough where she manages these better. She's by far my favorite.

I think she is the truest to herself.

She puts it out there that she wants nothing serious, and then she has two relationships that we see, and then I think they hint at a third one where she really got her heart broken.

I mean, in that sense, then she is somebody who obviously has difficulty being intimate, so she's protecting herself, but I don't know, I think she does it in such a powerful way.

Yeah. No, I agree.

I remember watching this back when I was still in high school with my parents, and I think my mom, who was very conservative and like, you know, for all I know, got to getting married a virgin, and then had kids and blah, blah, blah.

I think Samantha was her favorite because she was so fun, and she was so light, and she has so much fun, but and she was fabulous. So I agree. OK, I think that's it for the episode.

Now, Natassia, I wanted to ask you because I know you've been very busy with your own projects, with Wonderlust and other little satellite projects.

I would love for you to tell the listeners what you work on most, who are your clients, what do you work with them on, et cetera.

Yeah. So my focus is helping women overcome low desire and consequently couples to overcome mismatched desire. So we are going to be relaunching next week our Reignite Desire Masterclass.

It will be a two hour masterclass to help you really rebuild the foundation of your sex life, experience more pleasure, more desire. And then we're going to be launching in the beginning of next year, a membership community for women.

And there's going to be a ton of workshops and live group calls and then consequently also working one on one. So a lot of new things that are coming out. And we have our intimacy card deck that helps couples talk about sex.

I saw that.

That looks so fun.

Thank you.

And I'm guessing that the membership would be useful to anybody all over the world. Not just...

Yes, yes. Globally, but women only.

Perfect. But I'm guessing then there's a lot that might be for people who are in committed relationships with maybe...

That's my focus. It is because generally experiencing low desire is something that people who are in a relationship or marriage, generally two plus years start experiencing. It's after that new relationship energy starts to die down.

Okay.

I'll put all that in the show notes. And Natassia, thank you so much for your time. This has been so much fun to record.

Thank you.

Thank you.