Games People Play, Terrible Therapists & Why Bon Jovi Was the Wrong Choice — S2E13 with Archie Kennedy, Age 21

About This Episode

In Season 2 episode thirteen of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV sits down with Archie Kennedy — 21-year-old son of therapist Kristina Kennedy — for a refreshingly unfiltered male perspective on Sex and the City's "Games People Play." It's the episode where Carrie finally goes to therapy, immediately starts dressing up for Bon Jovi in the waiting room, and ends up back at square one. Plus: Miranda's mortifying encounter with her gay neighbour, Charlotte's argument that games are necessary in relationships, and Samantha's inability to get laid unless the Knicks are winning.

What We Cover

• Do we all play games in relationships — and is it ever actually okay?

• Why women hold more cards than they realise, according to a 21-year-old man

• The friend who ignores every red flag and then acts shocked six months later — we've all been there

• Archie's hot take: women play more games than men, and here's why

• Carrie's therapist who was "a cold bitch and judgy" — what a good therapeutic relationship should actually look like (Christina weighs in from the patio)

• The guy who loses all interest immediately after sex: what's really going on, and why he shouldn't have been dating in the first place

• Meeting people organically vs. dating apps — what Archie's generation actually wants

• The Double Date app: why it might be the most interesting new concept in dating

• Charlotte's damsel in distress strategy: is financial dependence a dating tactic or a trap?

• Why instant gratification culture makes us give up on therapy, relationships and anything that requires patience

• What Samantha's conditional boyfriend reveals about what you actually need in a life partner

About Our Guest

Archie Kennedy is 21 years old, studying in London, and the son of integrative psychotherapist Kristina Kennedy who appeared earlier in Season 2. He came in with zero prior knowledge of Sex and the City and left genuinely intrigued. He would like it officially noted that what he said about giving a girlfriend his flat key was not about furniture theft — it was about her rearranging everything because she'd think he'd done a poor job of it.

Transcript

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. This week, I'm bringing Archie Kennedy.

He is Christina Kennedy's son, and he was such a trooper for coming on the podcast. I hope you really enjoy his takes as a 21-year-old man, who's honestly too well regulated to be able to tap into the misdemeanors of this world.

But I really enjoyed having his take as a younger person that never watched the show growing up. And also his male perspective.

But before you dive in to the show, I'd like to remind everybody to please follow the show, share it with your friends and rate five stars. Give me any comments and any feedback that you think I should be listening to.

And also don't forget that we have our Instagram and TikTok accounts at We Found Therapy pod.

Besides that, Archie asked me to please clear his name, because when his mom came on, he said that she made a bad job at explaining his point, that if he gave his key to his flat, to his girlfriend, he might come back to an empty house.

Archie thinks that that sounds rightly so, like she would steal the furniture, but like he wanted what he said was, I'd be scared to come back home to everything being rearranged, because she would probably think that I did a poor job at arranging

and choosing my furniture, and like she would change all of it. So, this is all to clear Archie's name. We love Christina. We love Archie.

Thank you both so much for coming on again. And I hope you guys enjoy the episode. I love y'all.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I have with me today Archie Kennedy, who is the son of Christina Kennedy who was just with us a few episodes ago. How are you, Archie?

I'm very well, thank you.

How are you?

Very good. Thank you so much for coming on. I also have Christina within the vicinity because we're going to ask her for some inputs, so she'll scream from the patio, but I'll translate that back into the microphone.

Today, we're here to discuss Season 2, Episode 13 of Sex and the City, Games People Play. This episode is all about games, sports, table games, games we play in relationships. So my first question is, Archie, did you grow up knowing about this show?

I knew about the show, but I never watched an episode or really, I never knew anyone that had watched it, but I'd heard the names and references.

How old are you?

Remind us again. 21. And what did you think about the episode?

It was good.

It was funny. I definitely thought it was really comical.

Did you feel like it's aged all right or were you like, whoa, I can't believe they said that?

No, I did. I think it aged well. I definitely, I could see myself watching the show.

I'm definitely intrigued.

Okay.

But basically, this is one of the most epic episodes in the show because it's also part of the reason why I started this podcast, which is when Samantha says back to Carrie, well, we can't be your advice givers because it's like the blind needing the

blind. You need a therapist. And that's how the episode opens. Carrie keeps yapping and yapping and yapping about her ex who she just broke up with, Mr.

Big, who Archie doesn't know, but we'll get to that. And she keeps telling all her girlfriends one by one how much she's gonna miss her, how much better she was, how much better she is without him.

Have you ever had a friend that would not stop talking about their ex?

Definitely, yeah.

What's your take on people who kind of like fixate on that after they've broken up?

Well, I don't know, it's interesting. I'm obviously thinking from a guy's perspective. I think we've had, I've been with guy mates, we've all said the same thing about a partner that one of our girl mates has had.

And we've said all the red flags, we've said all our opinions, and everything sort of goes straight over. She doesn't listen, doesn't take it in.

And then six months later, a year later, everything that we were saying, she is then exactly saying, he did this to me and that happened, and I didn't like when that happened.

So, and then do you think like they get stuck on that thing? And it's like, but like, how did you see it? And like, because I sometimes do fixate on some things.

And I was like, but what did you think that was about? And like, and I feel when I am stuck talking about an ex too much, I'm not over it. Do you agree?

Do you think that if you get stuck talking about them, you're not over them?

I think definitely, yeah, I think it, you know, anything takes time to process, especially when you build this idea of someone in your in your mind that they are they are meant to be this particular person in your mind, even though your friends tell

you the opposite. You have you're so fixated on this idea that even when he does everything that your friends warned you about, you still can't believe it, and you're still in shock.

And I've had that with friends before where we have listed out X, Y, Z about someone and they totally ignore it. And then they act shocked. Six months later, they've done exactly those things.

I could be one of those friends.

Okay. Then, Carrie gets referred to a therapist that apparently is like a celebrity to the stars, and like when if Paltrow goes to her because she suffers from high self-esteem.

And I'm very curious to think what you think of how they portray therapy, therapists, and also patients of therapy. What was your take from this?

I think it was quite funny the friend that had the three therapists.

Yes, that's Stanford.

I find it quite funny because to me the idea of therapy is to not need therapy at some point. The whole point of therapy is to get yourself to a position where you no longer need therapy.

Yet he talks about having therapists for different reasons and when he wants sort of different feedback etc. I don't know, I found that very funny.

That's interesting though because obviously I think that was probably 1999 or early 2000s and we've come a long way.

I don't think there's such a taboo about therapy anymore, but I have a lot of friends that have different therapists at the same time. One of them will do EMDR and the other one will do behavioral therapy. Christina, feel free to chime in.

What is behavioral therapy? What? CBT.

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. And like you have a specialist per thing, but one of them is supposed to be very particular.

So I do still know people that have several therapists and many people think that is like not a crutch for life, but like something that will help you have different tools in your toolbox and will keep it for life. Do you go to therapy or do you?

I don't know. Touch wood? I don't go to there.

Touch wood.

Because he has a mother.

Yeah, because obviously his mother, yeah.

But they do say at least in Spain that, you know, in the house of a knife sharpener, you have like a blunt bread knife. So we'll see. Although I have to say Archie is a very mature, well regulated kid.

Christina, well done. But besides this, Carrie has her first session with the therapist. And it is a bit, I was very shocked to see how much they painted the therapist as a bit of a cold bitch.

I'm sorry, because she was very kind of like, okay, why are you here? And then Carrie's also having a lot of issues being there because she thinks like only crazy people go to therapy, et cetera. But they get to the crux of it.

Like, why are you here? My friends cannot stop me about talking about my ex anymore. And then she asks her like, do you think you often choose the wrong man?

And she's like, yeah, well, who hasn't? And then she was like, well, you're the common denominator. And here I want Christina to chime in.

Would you ever say that to a client? Would you ever say to a client, you choose the wrong man and that's all on you?

Well, here's to the client-therapist relationship that's just gone out of the window in two seconds. And where's the sort of safety and grounding for any client relationship with a therapist in terms of feeling safe?

So I think that is probably how not to be with your clients.

Okay, so she was a cold bitch.

She was, yeah.

And judgy.

And judgy. And projecting. I'm so interested in that comment because a therapist would rarely say something like that without there being something behind it themselves.

Okay, so the expert has spoken.

We shouldn't be hearing that from therapists. Thank you, Christine. But then the girls are kind of like unpacking the session as they're walking down the street in New York.

And Carrie says, well, she got me all wrong. She thinks I was a game player and that was all him. That's not me.

And she paints herself as a victim. And then Charlotte says, well, of course you're playing games. Even if you're in a happy relationship, you need to play games.

What do you think about that?

I think that's quite a dangerous way to look at sort of relationships and view relationships. When you view having a connection with someone as sort of a negotiation, I think things are bound to go wrong.

I mean, I have so many friends that spend hours talking to people they like, trying to convince that person that they like them less than that person likes them. Yes.

Yeah, we have this culture recently of people who don't open up necessarily in early stages of a relationship. People hold back to protect their ego.

And I don't think you're ever going to find love or a strong relationship if you're always holding back, always want to play somewhere.

You saying that gives me hope, but that has been going on forever. Because I feel like they put some clips of people chiming in and saying like, okay, well, I went out with this man and then he didn't call me until like Thursday.

So I screened his score and I didn't call him back until Monday. Have you ever done that?

I have, as I think anyone has. Obviously, I was younger and I learned my lessons. But I think you act differently for different reasons, right?

If you're not looking for something serious, if you're looking for something meaningful, then I think it's very common, very normal to play games. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, as long as the other person wants the same.

Have you ever liked somebody more because they were harder to get? Because I think that's the ultimate dating game, which is playing hard to get.

Definitely, yeah. I think so. I mean, laws of supply and demand, right?

Yeah. It's no fun if you can get anything you want easily or within a second. Yeah.

So you're in a relationship, right?

But from what I understand, it was pretty straightforward with you guys, or was there some kind of pull and push at the beginning? Do you think you engaged in any games whatsoever before you decided you were committed to each other?

I mean, I was probably first time in my life very open. Okay. I mean, apart from the first 10 seconds of meeting her.

Yeah.

And I knew exactly.

So I met her at a university society part night. And I was the last one there. I was about half an hour late.

And all the girls were sat on one side and the guys were sat on the other side of sort of preschool. And I knew immediately I wanted her. So obviously, my immediate instinct was to look at everyone but her.

And avoid eye contact and try to gain her interest somehow. And then after the third or fourth time that we kind of hung out, I let it slip.

I was saying something about I can't believe I'm gonna have to tell my friends blah, blah, blah about my girlfriend. And I wasn't even thinking about it. But she immediately went, oh my god, he said girlfriend, he's already thinking about that.

Yeah. And I think that was one thing that in one way I accidentally sort of reassured her.

Yeah.

It wasn't just some short term thing that I had serious intentions.

And she went like, loved it.

Yeah.

OK.

I mean, she tried to hide it. She didn't do a very good job.

Do you think that men are more prone to playing games than women?

I think women definitely play more games than men.

Interesting.

I think often they're seen as the prize. They're seen as what the man is chasing after.

Yes.

A lot of the time, women are the ones that are holding the power.

Yeah.

So I think they're the ones that have more cards to play the games.

Interesting. Okay. So all the more power to us.

Okay. Then I think they all go into a sports bar, and it's because it's sports night, the girls drink for free, and then they're talking about the games and sports, etc.

Of course, Samantha, who you don't know, but she's like the fun one in the group that is very promiscuous, never gets hurt, finds a guy, ends up sleeping with him.

Would you say that a sports bar is a place where you would be like, hey, let's go to watch, I don't know, a rugby game? The thing is that here it's the pub, and here you do meet girls at the pub.

But would you say like something like a mega guys setting is like an appropriate setting for a woman to look for a man, like a rugby match being aired on a pub, or going to Twickenham, which is a rugby stadium?

I think that's a difficult one because, you know, when it comes for, if you're talking about meeting the right person, if you're talking about something serious in the long term, then there is no right or wrong place, really.

You can bump into anyone, anywhere, anytime.

You are your mother's son. Yes, that's a good answer. Okay, then I think we also get introduced to Bon Jovi.

Please tell me you know who Bon Jovi is.

My mom has told me, yes.

But he's a legend. He still looks kind of all right. And I actually think you should know him because his son married 11 from Stranger Things.

Are you kidding?

Yeah, full circle.

I can always bring it back to younger generations. Bon Jovi is the patient that goes before her in therapy.

And they have this kind of like things where like he comes out and they had to say hello and Carrie starts dressing better and better to go to therapy, which again, I feel like the therapist shames her. Did you catch that, Christina?

In which bit?

So because Bon Jovi and Carrie are having like their little meat cues right before Carrie's session and she keeps dressing better and better. The first time she does the therapist is like, how you dressed up?

Did you find it a bit kind of like passive aggressive or is it just me?

I think that doesn't even need an answer. It's hilarious. The whole thing is hilarious.

But I don't think that therapist would have much of the license left if she continued that way.

No. Okay. So she was passive aggressive.

Maybe she liked Bon Jovi. Who wouldn't?

Well, who wouldn't exactly.

Yeah. But then Carrie and Bon Jovi exchange numbers. They go on a couple of dates.

And because the whole theme of the episode is games, in her voiceover, the first time they go out on a date, Carrie is like, in the spirit of breaking my pattern and like using my therapy, I decided not to play any games and tell him how I felt.

And she says, I like you. How would you feel as a guy if maybe a woman was a bit more forward? And you asked her out and you're just like testing the waters, but she's like, hey, I like you.

I think it depends on how much you like them back because it's very difficult, you know, on a first date.

They've had an interaction twice for probably less than a minute. Yes. And they're meeting for the first time.

So if that was me, I'd probably be a bit like, well, it's a bit soon. It's a bit much.

Okay.

But if it wasn't a second or third date, if I really liked the person back and they were upfront and honest with me, then, yeah, I'd feel super happy and secure with that. And I would be just as open with them.

Okay.

I would love if a girl did that, if I really liked her.

Okay. Good to know. Then another storyline in this episode is Miranda.

She's having a bit of like a flirty relationship with her neighbor from across the road. And they keep having this kind of like waving at each other. Then they start playing peekaboo, showing bits and bobs.

Have you ever kind of had that meat cute where like you keep bumping into the same person and eventually you start waving and then you start saying hello and then you start saying, how are you or no?

Yeah. I mean, I have in a way, my current girlfriend, we obviously bumped into each other randomly at that pub social society. And then she was on the same course as me.

So we would bump into each other for a few seconds in the hallway. And then as well, it was the Scandinavian society that we joined. So we had a lot of mutual friends.

So we'd end up going to other nights, go to the pub or whatever. And then, of course, we'd keep bumping into each other that way.

Do you think that your generation is now like maybe 90% meeting more online through apps, or there's still that wish to preferably meet people organically?

I think there's definitely a wish to meet people organically. I don't think many people enjoy online dating. I think a lot of people use online dating for that sort of dopamine hit.

And everyone downloads Tinder for one reason, and it's not to find the person you're going to marry. I think very few people are looking for anything meaningful in online dating apps.

I definitely think there's a huge drive for these new ways of socially interacting with people.

There's this really cool new app called Double Dating, which you can add all your friends on, and the way it works is that you match with people and your friends match with people, and you go out on a double date.

And it will connect the mutual friends, exactly.

That is so cool.

So you get to go out with your best mate, she gets to go out with her girlmate, and you guys can go to a bar or whatever. You can do anything. I think that's such a cool idea.

That is a cool idea.

I know they're just bringing it to the UK and they're doing this whole events tab, and I think that will be super successful.

Okay, you heard it here first.

Double is coming to the UK. Okay. Then to wrap the episode up, I think Carrie and Bon Jovi are having another date.

Carrie invites him back to her place. They're playing twister and they end up sleeping together.

And Carrie is trying to, I guess, you know, bond even more with somebody with whom she just had sex and says, okay, now tell me, what is really wrong with you? Why are you going to therapy?

And he says, oh, I completely lose interest after, after having sex with a woman. What about you? And she says, I choose the wrong man.

And then she turns around and is like so sad. What did you think of this? Did you think it was like the plot was too heavy handed?

Or have you seen maybe some of your friends that not because they want to, they always kind of fall into that losing interest after maybe having sex with a girl and they're just like after the next dopamine hit?

I think that scene was hilariously written. I think that was written so well. I think that was just combination of really unlucky for her.

Yeah.

And obviously for him, he hadn't quite processed what he needed to have therapy.

Yes.

So I don't think he really should be out seeking.

If that is what he's trying to overcome is losing attraction afterwards. And I don't think he should be actively looking for new connections until he's processed that. And then sorry, what did you ask?

Have you had any friends that have that?

That like immediately after they sleep with a woman, they're like, okay, I got the validation that I wanted. I like on to the next.

Yeah, definitely. I know a few people like that. Both girls and boys definitely.

Huh.

What do you think is behind that? Is it just that they need a challenge? And as soon as they get that validation, they're like done because they were chasing something that probably is within them or not?

I think there's so many different factors.

Some people, it can be, they've got low self-esteem and they need that confidence boost. They have that need to feel wanted or loved or desirable or whatever. You've got other people that can't commit, because they've been burned previously.

They've been burned so hard. It was someone as crazy as it sounds at 1920. They think they're going to marry.

They're totally in love.

I've been there.

Yeah, I know many friends like that and all for different reasons.

Okay. Basically, the moral of the story is that Carrie stops going to therapy because she couldn't risk running into Bon Jovi again. Do you think that that was like the right moral of the story?

Like she was, I'm going to stop therapy and my friends understand.

I feel like that's the classic, especially nowadays, people give up too easily. I feel like people really have much less drive than they used to do anything.

And I'm not surprised when you have, you know, on your phone, you can order food to your house in half an hour. You can get caught scrolling on TikTok Instagram reels for an hour or two hours. And it feels like a couple of minutes.

I think we have this society where you have so many instant gratification factors, all these easy, simple dopamine hits. I can understand why.

Interesting. Okay, now on to the last bit of this episode, which is like pieces of advice for each one of the girls. So for Carrie, if she was your girlfriend, how would you try to help her get over her break up with Mr.

Big, who she was like, bizarre it with? And what homework do you think she should focus on in therapy?

I think you should focus on in therapy why she is constantly attracted to those guys. And then why she, as you were saying earlier, why she plays victim and is sad when the same kind of guy acts the same kind of way as the previous guy.

And my advice would be to work on that before seeking anything further. A bit like Bon Jovi shouldn't have been seeking her number, etc.

So you wouldn't advise getting right back on the saddle and just get over him by getting under him, which is such a cliché. Never.

Best way to get over a man is to get under another. I don't know. I just feel like that's never going to heal you long term.

It's not going to help you in your future relationship.

70% of the time is like a double down if you try to get over someone like that.

Yeah.

OK. And then Samantha, what would you tell a friend who is with someone that only gives her what she wants when things in his life are copacetic?

Because she can only get laid with Don or whatever his name is if the Knicks are winning or if whoever team he supports is winning.

I think that's a difficult one because how old are they in the episode?

Samantha always claims to be in her 30s, but I'm guessing she's in her 40s. And she knows better.

Right. So she's probably at that age where she wants something more serious, someone to settle down with.

Oh, you're going to have to watch the show. So she thinks she will never. She just wants all the men.

But she is very kind of like she self serves when it comes to sex and like she will get. And I think here she tries to insist on like working around Don and his teams because she says the sex was great.

But do you think that it's fair that everything needs to be kind of like at ease in his world in order for her to get what she wants?

Definitely not.

And the reason why I asked is how old was she and if she's trying to look for someone to set her down is that whole idea is that if you're choosing someone that you're going to marry or be with for the rest of your life, then that's someone who's

going to be with you at your absolute lowest moments, you know, from the moments where your parents are going to die to the moments you might get fired. You need someone who is there and loves you selflessly and is unselfish in those moments, even if

That's a great answer, Archie.

Okay, what about Miranda? How would you help maybe a friend navigate the rejection that she went through when she ran into her neighbor at the supermarket?

She's like, Oh, I feel like I would be like a grown up and like approach you and tell you like, hey, it's me from across the street. And then he's like, oh, you're the woman that lives right below the guy that I've been cruising.

Yeah.

Like that was brutal.

Yeah, that was brutal. But that again, that was hilarious. I mean, I really want to watch the show now because there's some really good scenes in there.

Yeah.

But I think that's not necessarily rejection.

I mean, bless her because he's gay. There's no hard feelings. There's no interest there anyway.

So I don't see it as necessarily rejection. I think that is just really bad luck.

Yeah. It's just the way that she was like, fuck, she was so embarrassed and like run and then schedule an emergency therapy session with a therapist. I was just like, she feels so, like such a loser.

I know.

Yeah, I mean, we all have those moments, don't we? I've had moments like that where you just want to melt into the ground. You just want to die.

It's so embarrassing.

My advice is always like, lean into it and just be like, oh my God, of course you're gay. You're gorgeous. Just like say like, I just made a fool of myself, but like poor Miranda, she broke my heart.

Okay. Finally, what about Charlotte?

What would you tell a friend who's a girl that thinks that you need to play games in order to make a relationship work, although you've sort of covered it, but like she is kind of like the conservative one, that thinks that she needs to play like a

damsel in distress in order to attract that white knight that's going to come and save her and buy her the house that she's going to live in, because you cannot be financially independent to attract the strong man that you want. What would you tell

I'm so bad.

I'm so bad with advice.

Do you think that a woman...

Because your mom is very independent, but do you think that a woman that puts so much in a man is maybe setting herself up, maybe not for failure, but you're definitely not going to hold the reins to your own ending or like happy ending.

Have you seen maybe women in your generation not be so much like, oh, I need help because I'm a girl, and like I need to play the game of being a damsel in distress. Do you still see that in your generation or not?

Yeah, I think there's increasingly women that want to be totally independent, right? They don't want to ever be in a position where they have to depend on a man or their husband, which in a way I think is quite sad.

It shouldn't be about, you know, sex. It shouldn't be a man, a woman depending on a man, a man depending on a woman. Because I think that's the way I view it, is that's meant to be your partner.

You're meant to be a team. You're meant to do things together, right? Yes.

If one person wants to work and one person wants to look after the children or whatever, then I think you kind of work that out.

And then in a way, obviously the husband is hugely dependent on his wife to raise the children, look after the children as he would and would want them to be raised just the way that she is dependent, that the water is going to keep flowing, the

Yeah.

From him going to work.

OK.

Well, that was lovely, Archie. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much for having me.

Any other hot takes from the show that you want to share before we wrap this up?

Not really, no.

OK. Well, I look forward to you watching the show. I'm very keen to know what your thoughts are.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Bye.