Fetishes, Foot Finds & Why Carrie Drunk-Dialled Paris at 5AM — S2E12 with Erica Lemke, Sex Coach & Certified Sexologist

About This Episode

In the Season 2 finale of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV welcomes back certified sexologist and sex coach Erica Lemke to unpack Sex and the City's "La Douleur Exquise." It's the episode where Samantha opens a fetish restaurant, Charlotte gets her shoes for free in the most uncomfortable way possible, Miranda discovers her date can only finish outdoors, Stanford meets Rick 9 Plus, and Carrie drunk-dials Mr. Big at 5.30am Paris time to tell him she thinks about him all the time — then throws a Big Mac at him.

What We Cover

• Kink vs. fetish: the crucial distinction and why language matters when we talk about sexuality

• Agoraphilia — the science and psychology behind why some people can only get aroused in public spaces

• Foot fetishes: why they're one of the most common, and the surprising brain-mapping theory behind them

• Charlotte's free shoes and Buster's non-consensual moment — why this would be treated very differently today

• Stanford and the early internet dating scene: why anonymity online can be the first step toward sexual confidence

• Carrie drunk-dialling Mr. Big: hot take — is she actually the one doing the gaslighting?

• Why Carrie might unconsciously need the drama — and what it says about her attachment to insecurity

• The Big Mac scene: what she should have said instead of throwing fast food at the TV

• Consent in fetish relationships — what the partner of someone with a fetish needs to know before they go any further

• Why assumptions are the real relationship killer — and how to move from reactive to responsive

About Our Guest

Erica Lemke is a certified sexologist and sex, wives and relationship coach based in Salt Lake City, Utah. She was recently featured on The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives discussing fetishes, and works with individuals and couples on all aspects of sexuality, intimacy and relationships. She is currently putting together workshops — find everything she offers at her website and reach her at erica@sexcoachslc.com. All links in the show notes.

Transcript

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I have with me today the beautiful Erica Lemke. Again, how are you, Erica?

So glad to be back.

This is so exciting. I love it.

I'm so happy you're back. Erica is a Sex, Wives and Relationship coach, and also she is a certified sexologist.

Correct.

Also recently featured in The Secret Lives of the Mormon Wives that I ate up as soon as it came out for a bit on fetishes. That is what... Can you say that word for me?

Because I saw that I...

Fetish, fetish, yes. A fetish or multiple fetishes, right?

We're going to talk about fetishes today. And if I mispronounce, feel free to correct me because I've been in my head about this word since I've been prepping.

But today we're here to discuss season two, episode 12 of Sex and the City, La Doleur Exquise, which is the epic.

Play the end.

It is the epic episode where Mr. Big goes to Paris. So Erica, I am very, very honored to have you on for this one.

Well, it's my pleasure.

Yeah. It was kind of interesting, and how appropriate to have been featured with the episode. And then you reached out.

It was like, yeah, this makes sense.

It does make so much sense. So let's dive in because Carrie is still blissfully in a relationship with Mr. Big.

And Carrie's voiceover is talking about how New York restaurants always have like a flavor of the month. One day can be Caribbean Cajun Heritage Month. And this time around, it was Samantha's PR opportunity to bring fetishes to the table.

And Samantha was running the opening of this new restaurant that celebrated fetishes. And like the waiters are going around showing their butts and like leather harnesses. And everything is very out there.

And Sam asked the girls to show up with a kink. And I think that's hilarious. I don't think I've ever seen such a restaurant in London.

I've seen clubs, but my first question to you is, do you think as a sex therapist or a sexologist, do you think we all have fetishes? And how much a psychologist do you delve on the root of them?

Yeah. So I think there is a distinction to be made between kink and fetish. So a fetish is something that's...

So someone's attracted to something that's just a typical object, not necessarily a sexual object, but they get sexual gratification or arousal from that particular object. That's necessary.

So a fetish really is something that they need that in place in order for that sexual arousal or sexual fulfillment. A kink, on the other hand, is... And it's non-normative, which means it's not...

You know, it's not societally acceptable. Let's just say that, right? Just kind of a broad, broad spectrum.

Because that changes, right? That changes. And I think it's even changed.

What is this? Twenty-seven years? Twenty-six years?

Yeah, I think that was like barely new millennium.

So you think now, like compared to like, would we consider this to be as like risque now than we did at that time?

And I'm actually going to say no, because I think there's a lot more. The internet has provided such a platform in a lot of good ways about exploring sexuality, sexual forms.

People can talk about this stuff now, even chatting and so forth, but in a safe space where they get to explore that. So I think it's opened up a lot.

So going back, so kink is also non-normative, but it is not necessary for sexual arousal or gratification. So it could be a preference, for example. So when you ask about fetishes, I'm going to say I would consider more of a kink.

Do we have kinks? Because fetishes do require to have more of that, like if I don't have this present, then I'm not going to be sexually gratified. Does that make sense with the difference?

Yes, yes, it does, because we always hear about the food fetish.

Or a shoe fetish, for example, right?

If you were to say, Charlotte has a shoe fetish, I would say, that's not true, because she doesn't get sexual gratification from those shoes. She has a, it may be a kink, it may be a preference, right? But it's different than a fetish.

Or maybe an addiction, that's true too, yeah.

Okay, very interesting.

So I know I threw you off a little bit, but I just, but I think it's important because I think, I think language is important when it comes to this stuff.

I think it is important, and like I had never thought that there would be a difference between one or the other, and I do think we're a lot more literate when it comes to anything sexual these days. So like, thank you.

Absolutely. Well, no, and I think too, that is also part of like, you know, why social media and like with the good stuff, right?

We can get good knowledge, and obviously there's been more research and, you know, all of this stuff in, you know, in 25 plus years time. So I do think that matters, you know, in that from coming from that aspect.

Then in this restaurant scene, I think they're all like having fun with like the waiters and the fetishes and I don't know what. And Carrie says, well, I gotta go because Mr. Big is traveling tomorrow, and I told him I would help him pack.

And Samantha says, like, OK, take this. And like she gives her a top hat and in the crop. I also didn't know what that was called.

And she goes over to Mr. Big's, knocks on the door, and they have this little moment, which I wanted to get your point of view because I do get like little reading between the lines of this show that because Mr.

Big and Carrie are a romantic relationship, this was a bit too risque for that to be part of their relationship. And that scene to me looks very cringe. Mr.

Big is like, fine, I'll entertain this, but like I'm not really into it.

Do you agree with me? She definitely surprised him, that's for damn sure. It was a bit of like, oh, okay.

But in my mind, I thought, well, what is she hoping to be his response? What does she want? How does she want him to respond to her?

At the end, they were against the wall and get ready to do the dirty. So obviously, it piqued his interest enough to have him act, maybe not initially because I think he was stunned.

As a Carrie correspondent that identifies as her, I do think there's a big part of her that always wants to keep him hooked. Like she's never the same and like...

Good question. Well, because I will say, I think that she's very needy with him, right? And she needs him to want her.

She needs him to always be thinking about her, like she talked about later on, right? So yeah, so I see that for sure. But, you know, come on, she looked hot, she looked great.

I mean, you know, got to give her that.

Props for that. Props for that. And always try to bring some spice to the relationship.

Exactly.

Maybe not necessarily a crop, but, you know, we all have to stir somewhere.

Okay. Then the next morning is, you know, she's helping pack and she's being so sweet. And she's like, okay, I was talking to my friends that maybe we're going to do a house share at the Hamptons.

Do you want to chip in or do you want to have other plans together? And he throws out the Paris bomb, like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm traveling to Paris and I may need to be there. And she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

How long? She's like, oh, for a while, I don't know. It's all in the works.

I'll know more about it when I'm back. And she is pissed, but like, she's just like, oh, okay, because, you know, the car is coming to pick him up. How do you feel about this relationship?

Having this moment like this, especially because like gearing up, I know that you maybe probably just watch this episode, but like gearing up to this episode, we do get a lot of the girls being like, why are you back with Mr.

Big and blah, blah, blah. And there is a big talk about this time is different. We feel different.

And I think we all want to believe it, but this is the same Mr. Big.

I think we do, but I also think Carrie is the same Carrie. She craves that, she needs him to be thinking about her all the time, as she states later on that, I'm always thinking about you.

And I think in his defense, I'll be honest, I need to defend him here because I think he's never lied to her, I think ever. He may be very, like he's very up front, he's very, but he doesn't play games with her.

And so he might be a little freaked out about the relationship, that could be part of it, it could be just for work, but he doesn't know anything yet. So I think part of it, I want to defend him because he's like, he doesn't know what's going on yet.

I mean, I guess he could have put the word out to her earlier, but I think that would have just incensed her and made her feel anxious.

So I almost feel like he was protecting himself, maybe her, but maybe himself too, with knowing what was going to come back to him. So I don't know. I can see both sides, actually.

I can see both sides because I think that he's always been very upfront and is real with her, and I think she puts these stories in her head and has all of these scenarios that I think are non-existent, but she believes it with every ounce of her

I mean, 100 percent, but I wish she would have been her therapist back then because I think the next scene is the girls at brunch and she's just losing it, and I feel like she has no outlet for her anger with him or with a therapist.

So she's just banging the table and screaming and being like, I can't believe it. I wasn't even a factor in his decision, and he's doing this again, and I can't believe that I'm in an S&M relationship with Mr. Big.

Right.

And then of course, Charlotte is a voice of reason.

Bless her.

I would love for Carrie to have a little bit more of that, whether it's common sense or just thinking about the full picture instead of just seeing red, and everything's a catastrophe in that moment. Instead of looking at the potential.

And I think Charlotte oftentimes is that wise friend who says just what she needs to hear, but of course Carrie doesn't hear it, at least in that moment.

I mean, the way that I thought about it, but just because I've been raised to put a career in such a pedestal, I would have been like, oh my God, this must be so stressful.

But obviously my heart would have broken the first time that I heard that, like that. But I've been like, okay, this must be so hard for you. Let's talk about this when you're back.

This seems like a big deal for you with work. I'm here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But that did not happen.

But anyway, that is like, she goes to like compose herself. And I think she's having then drinks with Stanford. They also played Stanford in such a like, oh, since my main man was gone, I guess I would see my gay man.

And this is a very interesting storyline, especially comparing back then with now. It's amazing how much has changed because Stanford is talking to Carrie about the fact that she's met a guy over the internet where there's just nicknames.

And I think there's no pictures, there's no information about like probably height or age, anything like that. And he is Rick 9.5 or something like that?

Rick 9 plus. Rick 9 plus.

What does that mean? What is a Rick?

I'm actually not sure. I think it's just, you know, I mean, obviously 9 plus is he's reporting his endowment.

Yes, that I got. That I got.

I think the Rick is just a, I mean, he could have said Dick 9 plus. Gotcha.

Because I thought maybe I'm losing something because I'm not like a native speaker.

Yeah. Rick, I think is just, I just think it's just a name. Yeah.

Okay.

I think there's another connection.

He does meet Big Tool For You.

He is talking to Carrie like he wants to meet in this club, in Meatpacking District that is gay and stuff. But I'm so worried because he says he's so good looking and blah, blah, blah. Carrie is like, well, what are you worried about?

What's the worst thing that can happen? I mean, are you Rick 9 plus? Stafford is like, fine, I get your point.

And think about it too, this is in the early, early, early stages of the Internet.

It's probably an AOL, it's the first kind of chat online platform that they had back then too. So it was, I mean, just think of the arc from then until now.

I mean, my goodness, it's wild how much the technology has grown and so much more sophisticated than it was back then.

A thousand percent, but you can still feel the shame that I think Stanford always talks about himself as somebody who's like not good looking enough, especially for his audience. And there's a shame that he's had to like go to that.

What do you think about people that maybe tend to feel more comfortable in cyber relationships or cyber dating? And...

It's safe, right? And by all, I mean, it can still be your name, your likeness or whatever, but there is still a sense of anonymity there, right? There's still...

And let's be honest. I mean, like you said, Rick 9+, he is presenting an image or a persona, right? So this is his alter ego, almost, if you want to say it in some way, that I think gives him a little bit of empowerment.

But on the other side of that, just his lack of confidence within himself, but he still goes. So that's what I love is the fact that there is something that drives him that he's still gonna go and meet this person, potentially.

I love that, especially like being faced with like, no, clothes off.

Oh, goodness gracious, yeah. I know he wasn't expecting that.

But like, that's the thing with this show that I think they keep like putting in two very different boxes, anything fetish and sex is like very carnal and then anything relationship, like they don't explore that that much.

And you know, and that's a fair point. But I also think too, it's important to talk about like, sexuality is so individualized, our, you know, we are all, we all have different desires and, you know, turn ons.

I mean, I, and I think the more that we normalize that we all have our own sexual, you know, you know, desires and everything that are individual, but also as a collective, I think that is so much more normal.

If we speak to that, I think that gives people a lot of empowerment and autonomy when it comes to what they desire.

Yeah.

And I think that hopefully there's been like a bit of a, you know, convergence between like maybe, because I think back then, there was a lot more of like just identifying the woman as like the mother of your children and your wife and like that

role, right? Yeah. Doesn't necessarily is the woman that also makes your fantasies real.

Well, Madonna whore complex.

Yes. Yes. So we're proud of Stanford for going on that date.

We're proud of him for meeting, maybe not big tool for you, but this guy that compliments his briefs.

So you think that in terms of maybe being more comfortable like from behind the screen until you're ready to go to the next step is maybe just like an extra step for you to build up your confidence and maybe not something that you keep as a wall to

Well, absolutely.

Because again, if we keep that wall up, I mean, that's it's we're going to think we're staying safe, right? But we're actually staying very small. So yes, it's very vulnerable.

It's very scary. But it's also very brave to be able to take that action step. And because you don't know what's going to happen, right?

So either you try it on, you see how it fits. If it's not, if it doesn't work out, you know what? I would much rather go into a situation like that and completely fail because I know at least that I tried it.

And I think that's what builds our confidence muscle, is to keep going out and trying it. Yes, we're going to fail, but if we fail forward and keep knowing that, okay, this didn't work out this time, but I can still try again.

And I think that's the power of that.

And I think the more that you have the ability to like laugh it off and not take yourself too seriously, the better off you are.

Amen. Amen to that.

Okay. So then one of the other story lines for our girls is Miranda. Miranda is dating Will Arnett, who is almost recognizable.

Yes.

Almost unrecognizable. Yes, you're right.

Right?

My God.

He's a lot more attractive now. I don't know. Anyway, Miranda meets him in a used book, a sale or something like that, and they both have this passion for historical biographies, and they decide to go out on a date, and he shows her where...

Which writer was it?

Mark Twain.

Yeah, Mark Twain used to live, and that's the first time they have sex in public. We quickly get the message that Jack is just very turned on by having sex in public.

What are your thoughts, Jacint? This is called agoraphilia. That's the technical name of it.

So you think of people agoraphobia, like afraid of open spaces or whatever. This is agoraphilia, so a love of that. Not only does the love of that is...

So the turn on... So this would be considered a fetish. This is his fetish.

This is not necessarily a kink, because it's not...

The outside is the thing that's present.

Yes, and that's what he needs to get aroused and sexually turned on is to be the... So it's the anticipation of maybe getting caught, right? So it's...

And this is layered, right? So I mean, it's about freedom of breaking taboos, breaking away from societal norms, freedom of maybe, for some people, they've been told, well, you have to do it under the covers with the lights off, right?

So now there might be this, oh, I get to be more free, more, maybe more myself, more relaxed in the situation. But also it's like the adrenaline rush of like, you know, maybe we're going to get caught, you know?

But it's different also from exhibitionism, right? Exhibitionism is someone who wants others to see them. That's their turn on for the agoraphilia person.

Their turn on is actually for themselves, like being in this space that keeps them excited and turned on.

So what I'm reading between the lines is like a therapist wannabe is that maybe Will Arnett was very controlled by his parents growing up about anything sex and everything had to be kept under the covers.

But his parents were the epitome of it because the relationship has this climax when she's like, oh, I can get him into a bedroom, it was just like her that turned him on and then the parents walk in. I mean, he does a magnificent job.

Oh, he sure does. But that's actually a really good point because thinking about Miranda went along with this, but she was thinking it was like, is he into me or is he into that type of environment, right? That type of an experience.

And she gets so excited at the end, right? Yes, we're finally in the bedroom. He finds it's me he wants, but is it?

Because he was waiting for his parents to walk in and see them, which if you're in a relationship with someone like that, then do you think, oh, like she said, is it me? Probably not.

Interesting. Okay, I'll keep that in mind for the advice for the girls in the end. Because then the other story line is probably the foot and shoe fetish that we've talked about.

And it's Charlotte walking around falling in love with her sandals, but because she's being very responsible, she doesn't want to spend money on sandals because she's saving up for the Hampton share.

So she walks into Buster's store and Buster first gives her a 50% discount and then she gives her sandals for free, which I don't think I could have ever said yes to. But then again, who knows? I need to ask you what's behind a foot fetish.

And I know it's impossible to do like complete blank statements, but why are they so common?

It's funny. I think that that's one of the top, along with sex and public and age play and some of these other scenarios. Yeah, foot fetishes seem to be one of the more popular ones.

And I've heard different things. It could be something from childhood that is just sticks with them. And that's just kind of their inclination over time.

Others say that there's research that says that, like brain mapping. And it shows that the genitals and the feet are potentially closely related.

So when there is a stimulus that happens, that maybe the foot and the genitals are so close in that brain mapping that there is a connection there.

So interesting. Because I was thinking, like, this show is in many ways an ode to the shoe.

And I always remember that Christian LeBoutin, I think it was, did his shoe so tall, because he said that that was the shape that female feet would take when orgasm happened.

I could see that, actually, because how they point their toes, and it's very flimsy. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Yeah, I can see that.

Interesting.

Yeah, like, I love that in this day and age, it's still very present, and many women think they're going to be rich just by getting on Foot Finder and taking gross pictures of their feet. Myself included.

I mean, I haven't done it, but like, it's in the back of my mind.

Totally. Well, you know, and this is something I think, too, that we didn't cover yet, that I think is so important to talk about, and it's about consent and very explicit consent, especially when it comes to fetishes.

And so like when Buster has his moment, right, when she models the two, he basically had an orgasm, right? He had an orgasm, right, essentially. So again, that is a fetish, but I would say that was non-consensual.

So if you think about it, like these days, he would be, someone would be calling the police on him, right? I mean, Charlotte just sits there.

But if you think about it, that is a sexual, you know, I mean, I am not going to say that sexual abuse in any way, shape or form. However, if you think about it in other contexts, he definitely went out of, like he didn't ask her permission, right?

She was unaware of that. And I think that's where there's that slippery slope, that like, when you talk about this fetishes in particular that consent is crucial.

And I completely agree because now that you mention it that way, I guess that's what she thought she had to do to pay her dues and have her balance settled with him. I mean, like, okay, now I don't feel bad about keeping these shoes for free.

Right, right. So I just thought that was so interesting to think about it in this day and age, in our modern society, you know, now. Yeah, I would, I think it would be looked on very differently than it was back then.

A hundred percent.

He just looked very non-aggressive.

But yeah, he did. However, you never know. However, yeah, because it doesn't have to be an overt, necessarily an overt act.

Right, right.

Okay, so I think that's more or less what happens in the show. So maybe we can jump start to the advice. And I have to say, I'm very disappointed that, like, in such an episode, Samantha's storyline is Neil.

I know.

For what she could have brought to that, I was, I know, I was a little disappointed as well. But it was, it was interesting when, you know, she was telling all the girls about, you know, bring, bring your kinky, you know, bring kinky, right?

So this is...

So that's my question to you. What would you have maybe told the girls to, if you were Samantha, what would you have told them to, like, come as or come prepared with for the opening of the restaurant?

Yeah. Well, she knows her girls. She knows them.

So I think a little bit on Samantha, because, you know, God bless Charlotte. She doesn't have that lens, right? So she came with kinky hair.

She crimped her hair and thought that was what kinky was. So it's about clarification, right? It's about, like, knowing, knowing who they are and being able to speak to...

She might have, she definitely not might have. She definitely needed more instruction on what that meant to say, like, Hey, what is, what do you think kinky means to you? You know, tell me what kinky means to you.

Oh, hair. Let's reframe this. Let's reframe this from a sexual perspective, right?

So I do, I think it's important to clarify, just because one person says kinky, there could be 10 people in the room and they're going to have different thoughts about what that definition means for them.

Okay. Then for Miranda, and this is back to you saying, like, oh, is he interested in just being able to have sex with a woman in a public setting, or is it Miranda?

If Miranda was your client, how would you have told her to navigate his fetish with her, if she was interested in maybe exploring a real relationship?

Yeah.

Well, I think that if, so if she is the partner of the person who has the fetish, it's one of those things that they have to be open, hopefully, if they're interested enough to be compassionate, ask questions, listen to the person with the fetish,

listen to why and how and all of that to get a sense of, like, what am I getting myself into, right? But also, if at any point she felt uncomfortable to be able to say, no, I don't want to do this and have all the right to say, yeah, this isn't for

me, and be really clear with that, even though potentially that might mean he's like, well, I'm sorry, I'm out because this is what I like. And then she has to make the determination, does she want to stay in this relationship knowing that maybe it's

not just her, but he needs to have that connected with the foot or the agoraphilia in order to make that relationship work. I don't know. Knowing Miranda as we do, I don't think she's going to go for that, not for too long anyway.

It could be fun for, I think she had a little bit of fun, but I don't think it's long lasting. Unless she also had that same, could you imagine if they both, that's what they were into, it would be a match made in heaven.

A hundred percent and I think yes, for Miranda would have been fitting given how controlled and stuff she is.

Oh my gosh, no kidding, right? No, so seeing her out in the open and thinking about her going on a hike and doing it out in nature, I was like, I'd love to see Miranda do that.

Yeah, but I understand that maybe the parents was a bit too much. Because I was surprised when she was going with it in the cab and like, sure. I was like, go Miranda.

Yeah, although I'll tell you, I want to know what she's having because she can obviously have an orgasm in like two seconds.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me what that is. Yeah, right, yeah, but.

Okay, then what about Charlotte?

Would you have modeled the shoes in order?

I would say no, kind of what we talked about before. I just think that was just too much. Too much, too much.

So you would have given up on the Hamptons House share, pomade up 400 and that was your.

Heck yeah.

I don't think I would have been able to sit with myself if I would have done that.

Oh, I know.

Okay, and now it's tempting.

It is tempting. Shoes or shoes?

Shoes or shoes?

Okay, and lastly, I'm going to spend a little time on Carrie Kissbook because this is one of the most epic scenes of this show. It's voila, the French hat, voila, the Big Mac, it's all of it.

So when Stanford leaves for his Big Tool for You date, we see Carrie calling Mr. Big Drunk because that's when she decides that he's going to be the listening piece of the conversation, where she actually lets him know how she feels.

And because she always bottles it up, it always comes out like this, like punching him in the bed when he pushes her out, or screaming at him at 5.30 in the morning Paris time while drunk. Mr.

Big was a bit of an asshole, but like, what are your notes on that scene?

I, again, I'm kind of on big side, I'll be honest, because I mean, number one, she calls him and just starts ranting, like kind of what she does, right? Because she's carried this stuff in her head.

She never really has, like I actually think she gaslights him quite honestly, which I think is kind of interesting because-

Hot take.

She has these, like she has these stories that are conjured in her head, but she never really, like if she were to like break it down with him, like actually talk about before she gets to that point where she explodes all the time, I think it would

be definitely a different conversation, a different relationship, different relationship if she were to maybe not make so many assumptions and have so many expectations about him. And then, you know, I think about you all the time.

I think about us all the time. Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true because she does have to work. She does have her girlfriend.

So I mean, there is more life than just big, but how she presents that to him, I think it's a lose-lose for him when he's put in that position. But I also say, he always speaks the truth. He never lies to her.

He never makes me feel like her. I mean, maybe how he came across, right? And again, come on, let's be honest, though.

She woke him up at 5.30 in the damn morning and he was getting ready for a big business presentation or whatever. So I mean, I understand her feeling behind it. And yes, she was drunk.

So you know what happens when we drunk dial? It's usually never a good thing.

Don't do it.

Don't do it out there, folks. Don't do it.

Okay. But obviously she feels like she's wronged in this situation. So when he's back at the 9 p.m.

flight from Paris, she shows up with her little beret and like the big mac and the filet-o-fish and the phone sex and all that stuff. And I mean, she is so dramatic.

Like Sarah Jessica Parker is such a trooper for delivering the scene like that because that's where I have a problem with him. Like I understand, like, of course, you can say, like, don't move for me, move for you.

But like in a different way, like, do you understand that if you move there and then I'm busy, you might resent me. Like, it's just so frustrating.

So it's so layered, right? I mean, it's so incredibly layered. And yeah.

And and then, you know, and then she has her little moment where she throws the filet of fish, the filet of fish, the Big Mac.

It's just like what he says, because I think what she says is like, well, don't be silly. Why would I be moving to Paris if it weren't for you? And then he says, I just wouldn't want you to move to Paris.

And then expect something.

Yeah. Yeah. That's heartbreaking.

I would have broken something too.

Maybe not the TV. But I just think she is a bit too cuckoo. Obviously that is a big change for his life, and he is very egotistical, and she knows that.

So maybe give that if she really wants to stay with him, and she's okay with that. Give that the center space. What do you need from me right now?

Right.

Well, I also think too, though, she loves the drama. She loves the drama.

Oh, she does.

Because guess what? If they were in a normal, peaceful relationship, and maybe more like Aidan style of a relationship, way back in the day, right? But I think she needs to have that sense of drama.

She needs to have that sense of, like, you know, big being unattainable, right? Yes.

She needs to know that he wants her, and like, so I think honestly, she kind of creates the stuff on her own, too, because I think if it were so easy and simple, she wouldn't be there.

Interesting.

I think she would find the relationship to be too boring.

Which she does with Aidan, sadly.

Because there's no drama.

She creates it.

But I think that also her sense of insecurity of herself. Even with Big. I think that she needs to, by doing this, I think that she wants him to respond to her in a way that says, I love you, I need you, I want you.

And I think that she needs that constant reminder from Big that she doesn't get.

Which I'm guessing would be fixed with years and years of therapy of being like, you are the one who needs to sit yourself down and be like, I choose you, I love you.

What I didn't understand, and maybe I'm also part of the problem, because then she leaves and she's like, you said you love me, he says I do. And then she's like, then why does it hurt so fucking much?

Walks back home and she is 2.30 in the morning, she hasn't been able to fall asleep. And then there's a doorbell ring and it's Mr. Big.

And the next morning she's just like, after we slept together, I knew that it was over and I was like, I wouldn't have read it that way. That's just feels like, I was like, cause I feel like he's trying to give her maybe a breadcrumb.

Yeah.

But because I think there's so much up in the air, but she's just like, let's go to Paris, I won't come, let's not pretend to be something that we're not. Do you think that that was it? Cause I was like, I don't know girl.

Well, and I'm putting my glasses on for a moment because I want to read one little thing that she said in her little monologue.

It was like, I tied myself to a man who doesn't want to be tied down. And in my thought was, how does she know? I mean, again, she's making all of these assumptions.

She hasn't actually even spoken this out loud to him. So in her mind, they're broken up. I don't think that's true.

Did she actually say that to him when he left? I don't think that he thinks that they're broken up because she didn't explicitly say it. She just made those assumptions and then away he went.

Well, I guess he knew they were broken up eventually, but I don't know.

I feel like there was a lot more to be said about the real things. Like as a 36-year-old, however old she is, is there any angle of you wanting to explore this continuing with me staying here? Once you know more about your timing.

Right.

There were none of those discussions. There were none of those discussions.

And I just think how could that have changed had they sat down and actually came from a place of compassion for both of themselves and each other and not be reactive, but be responsive and actually have.

So that would be the work, like as a coach, that's what I would want to work with her on is like, how do you actually sit down and don't make assumptions and don't just jump to conclusions, but actually let's have, let's find ways to build

conversation about this from a very non-judgmental space, or then they can process that and then come back to each other and ask more questions and have more dialogue around that. So that would probably be the biggest thing I would want to work with

Interesting.

Okay.

And then is it fair to say that maybe women who always seem to be in a masochist relationship, like the one that Carrie is describing, that it's painful and like it's ups and downs, tends to be because of what you said of like you need to create

I really think at the base, it's insecurity.

They don't want to be rejected, so they'll do anything to like... But they need to be loved.

But not standing on their own like, I'm confident within myself, within this relationship, is I need that constant reassurance to know that I'm okay in this relationship. I think there's a definite dichotomy with that.

Yeah. Okay. Well, that was all great advice, Erica.

Thank you so much.

My pleasure. And it was fun to watch. I watched it probably about three times because I remember watching it years ago and I hadn't seen it for the longest time.

It was like, I just need to watch this again. So it was really fun. I'm so glad.

I'm so glad we got to do this one.

But before you go, I'd love for you to maybe tell our listeners what you're working on. I know that it's been very exciting since The Secret Lives of the Mormon Wives aired, but anything that you want to flag to our listeners.

Yeah. Well, I now have something called stan.store slash sexcoachSLC. So it's a page that actually shows all the stuff that I'm doing.

I am putting together a lot of workshops. So in stan store, you can request like, hey, I'm interested in workshops. I'm putting a lot of stuff together because I've been off my feet because of a surgery.

I won't be doing the workshops for several months, but I'm taking the summer off. Let's say that.

Talk about a foot fetish.

Oh, girl.

This is your time. Yeah. This is your time to go on foot finder.

I don't think anyone wants to see what I got going on.

I'm curious.

You never know.

Yes.

And no judgment.

Judgment free zone right here. Judgment free zone. And honestly, this also, make sure that we're not shaming anyone's kink.

We're not shaming anyone's fetish. As just a side note, if people are comfortable with their fetishes, that's great.

Some people find a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, depression, anxiety when it comes to this, and it actually disrupts their normal life.

So, if that is such a case, then it might be prudent for them to reach out to a mental health professional to get more help on that.

So I do want to put it out there, because for some people it can be wonderful and exciting and very supportive, but on the flip side too, there are people who struggle that they can't have a normal relationship to sometimes because the fetish that

they have might be so ingrained that it conflicts with their social life, their work life, that sort of thing. So I think it's important to point out that.

All your contact details, so maybe you can point if somebody is struggling with that, you can point them in the right direction.

Well, thank you.

But Erica, we wish you a speedy recovery. Again, if you're willing to explore selling those beautiful pictures of your foot, let me know, I'll be your manager.

There's something for everyone, right? We have to remember that. There's something for everyone.

Exactly.

Thank you so much, Erica.

Thank you. Always such a pleasure. Thanks so much.

We'll talk to you soon.

Bye.