Fuck Buddies, Dating Patterns & Why Nice Guys Actually Finish First — S2E14 with Natassia Miller, Sexologist

About This Episode

In Season 2 episode fourteen of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV welcomes back certified sexologist Natassia Miller to unpack Sex and the City's "The Fuck Buddy." It's the episode where all the girls examine their dating patterns, Carrie realises she's ruined her reliable in-between-heartbreaks guy, Miranda falls for a terrible lawyer because he's dominant in bed, Charlotte tries to double-book dates on the same night and gets caught, and Samantha nearly makes a very poorly thought through decision about her neighbours.

What We Cover

• Dating patterns: how to recognise yours, and the list-making method that actually works for breaking them

• Do nice guys finish last? Natassia's hot take — and why the bad boy is exciting but ultimately lonely

• Kink vs. fetish, revisited: and why Miranda loving a controlling man in bed makes complete sense given how controlling she is everywhere else

• Fuck buddies vs. friends with benefits — the key differences and which one is more likely to end in tears

• Why oxytocin is released equally in men and women — and why the "women get attached, men don't" narrative is mostly social conditioning

• Can you turn a fuck buddy into a boyfriend? The honest answer

• Charlotte double-booking: is dating multiple people at once smart, anti-erotic or just exhausting?

• The best fuck buddies have the clearest boundaries — why casual doesn't mean careless communication

• Why meeting someone in a non-sexual setting first is always the right move

• How to meet people organically when the apps are burning you out — pickleball courts, pub culture and being vocal with your friends

• Samantha and the neighbours: don't arrive in lingerie the first time you knock

About Our Guest

Natassia Miller is a certified sexologist and couples coach based in New York, specialising in helping couples overcome challenges in their sex lives and relationships through goal-oriented, action-based coaching. She is also the creator of the Wonderlust Intimacy Card Deck. Find her on Instagram and at her website — all links in the show notes.

Transcript

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I have with me today another repeat guest, Natassia Miller, certified sexologist based in New York. Welcome back, Natassia, how are you?

I'm doing well, I'm excited to be back, thank you.

Thank you so much.

For those of you who don't remember, Natassia joined us for season one, The Monogamists, and that one was an epic episode where we discussed blowjobs, so it could be no other to do season two, episode 14, The Fuck Buddy.

Yes, I'm excited to dive in.

Me too. So basically in this episode, we discuss a lot about patterns, and then they also discuss that all the girls have a fuck buddy except for Charlotte. So we get introduced to this episode by Carrie running into Skipper.

And this episode has a lot of season one flashbacks between Skipper, Carrie's outfit at the beginning of the episode, and also the confessionals into the camera.

And Skipper keeps talking about how all the women he dates keep dumping him, and like, it's not him, it's them, including Miranda. So what do you think about maybe us having in general dating patterns? How hard do you think it is to overcome them?

And then do you think that nice guys finish last?

Okay, I'm actually going to start with the last one first. And at the core, we want a nice guy.

And so I think when you are able to break the pattern of going after the bad guy, you know, the one who is a little bit spicier, who we associate that with intrigue, you know, that's when you're able to finally find the partner, because at the end of

the day, the bad guy is going to give you a lot of headache. He's not going to make you feel good about yourself. And you can enter those relationships, but they're probably going to be very chaotic. And you're going to feel alone in them, right?

Not always, but that's generally what happens. So I think that good guys finish first, but it may take them a little bit longer to be found, so to speak.

Note to listeners, the first time we tried to record this episode, Natassia also told me when I told her that I had broken up with a guy that I was seeing, and I was surprised to know one, because he was a bit of a bad boy.

It's written in the stars. We all know, but we just want to see how it's going to play out, and we always have hope that with us, it's going to be different. Women love a project.

Maybe for a woman who has a pattern of always chasing the bad boy or the problematic choice, like Miranda's a poster in this episode.

What do you think are some good tools to keep in mind to maybe break out of that pattern?

First of all, just remember that when you give a shot to somebody who helps you break that pattern, it may not be a fit right off the bat. It can feel a little awkward. It can feel off because you're not used to it.

You need to give it a few tries so that you can actually get out of your habit. That's one thing to keep in mind. Another thing to keep in mind is for you to build greater self-awareness about what it is that you really want.

And I know I've mentioned this to you before, but I made a list of all of the qualities that I wanted in a partner. And I had forgotten about that list.

And after I met my husband months later, it wasn't even years, I came across this list again a year later and was completely dumbfounded with how accurate it was, how representative it was of my husband.

And so I know that this can sound a bit woo-woo for people, but I very much believe in making lists for the things that you want to achieve in life, and that includes your partners. It helps you get clear on what it is that you want.

And you subconsciously start attracting that more, too, because then you're like, mm, that person is becoming... They're not showing up in the consistency that I need them to show up in, that I want them to show up in.

And so you start slowly eliminating the people that are doing that into your life. And so right before I met my husband, I had a fuck buddy who was clearly not gonna be my life partner.

And it also helped me just let that go so much more easily than maybe a few years before in my relationships with the fuck buddies that I had at the time.

I've heard different versions of that. There's also the version where you write a letter where you thank your partner for being all the things that you appreciate about them.

So I do think it's a good exercise if you're trying to do a fuck boy or fuck buddy exorcism to maybe have that list of crystal clear things that are like your non-negotiables and then even wishless items to be able to let go of one boy at a time and

then hopefully that will eventually make it into breaking your pattern. Okay. And what was my other question to you? Did you have a dating pattern before you met your husband?

I always liked dating men in finance because before I became a sexologist, it hasn't changed.

Before I became a sexologist, I used to work in finance and my mom worked in finance, so there was something for me that was very familiar and relatable.

And so I know what they do and I understand the lifestyle and the lingo, and it was just always a source of comfort. I think I had a pattern of projecting too much too soon, which I think is just very common for women.

Like you're on the first date and you're already like, we're going to have three babies and my last name.

How does my first name match with your last name and that kind of stuff, which is funny because today I'm married and I didn't change my last name, but nor do we want to have kids. But it's very easy for you to project.

And my husband when I met him was going through this fate. Like he had been two years out of a divorce, and he was really in the moment of like coming out of his shell.

And so he really set the tone, the pace for us, because he was like, I like you, but I'm not ready to go full in balls to the wall the way that you are. So it was nice to be with someone who was very highly regarded by his friends.

And I think that's always like an important thing for you to notice is like, how well do his friends speak of him? Is he somebody that's like very affable and amicable and brings people together and is very warm?

And you can see that he's a kind person or is he just like an asshole? Because I think a lot of times they are assholes, but we want to hold on to this image that we have projected of them. And so I knew that he was actually the former.

He was a nice guy. He just needed some more time. And thankfully my thesis played out, so.

I think in this scene, we are having a picnic with all the girls and they're all going through the patterns that they have in dating.

Samantha's one is complete randomness. Miranda is that she doesn't like nice guys. She likes guys who are like jerks to her.

And she was like, what about Skipper? And I was like, well, you dumped him. Carrie doesn't have a pattern, which is true in this episode.

I think it is true in general. And Charlotte has a horrible pattern, which is like to put all her ex in one basket, meet the guy that looks perfect to her, takes all the boxes and then project, as you said, like the perfect life.

And then all her expectations come down crawling.

So within that, I think Carrie says, well, actually my pattern was that like right after every devastating relationship, I went back to John McFadden, who is this, the least charismatic dude, including skipper of the show.

So we get introduced to this guy, Carrie makes a phone call and like she decides that she's going to have sex with him. It's amazing. And then she starts thinking like, what if he's a great guy that I can just turn into a boyfriend?

We have this amazing sex. Like, it's not going to be that hard. What do you think about turning a fuck buddy into a potential boyfriend?

I think in general, if that wasn't explored from the beginning, it's really hard for you to circle back and bring in like the emotional relational aspect of it.

Because when you know that it's about sex and the sex works, it's probably because you haven't had any other opportunity to organically make that emotional connection and the better conversations and everything that comes with it happen.

It's for a reason. And so I think, number one, the fuck buddy needs to be fun. Because if it becomes heavy, then we already know that it's gone in the wrong direction.

It needs to be fun, it needs to be light, and it needs to be what it is. You need to align expectations from the beginning. Are you going to be wearing condoms?

Are you going to be sleeping around with other people? How does that look like? You know, when are you going to meet?

How do you reach out to each other? How are you going to treat each other? I think they're like, these are conversations that can make a lot of us feel uncomfortable because the fuck buddy sounds really loose.

But the best fuck buddies are the ones that are like, have very clearly defined boundaries. Or else it's just too messy, you know?

It is, it always ends up, or it used to end up very messily, because I don't think we were as relationship-literate and also emotionally-literate as we are now.

And my first observation when Carrie was like, hey, do you want to go for dinner on Friday? And blah, blah, blah, was how quick he was like, sure, yeah. Like, I feel like now men are so much like this when they want to leave.

But John didn't even know what he was getting himself into.

He thought that like going for dinner was like going like downtown on her, you know, it wasn't so and it was like, she should have just taken the clue from that first date because it was so horrible.

There was no content whatsoever between the two of them. They're clearly very culturally different.

No, I agree.

Like, and so she just tried to insist. And I think that's the thing, like, sometimes you want to give it a shot. That's great, you know, because you already have a no.

So if you want to give it a shot, but then if you realize that it clearly is not a match, that you're forcing something, then it's better to just let it go or to just have this conversation of like, let's just go back to being fuck buddies and enjoy

Which I think, yeah, you cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Like, I feel like if you've kind of like gone that way and it's like, ooh, okay, I have another question because I was eating and the girls are all doing yoga and Samantha, Carrie and Miranda are all talking about their fuck buddies.

And Charlotte's like, whoa, do you guys all have one? Like I don't get it. And like, how does it work?

Bless her. But what do you think are the main differences between... Because I think Charlotte inevitably would fall into a friends with benefits.

Like I don't think she could be as attached. We kind of see later in the show when she first meets Harry and she wants Harry to be her fuck buddy and she cannot have that boundary.

So what do you think are the main differences between friends with benefits and fuck buddies? And do you think that either has more chances of success than the other?

I mean, I think friends with benefits has a bigger chance of success because you already have that established. Like you are a friend and eventually you end up having the benefits.

Success meaning relationship then for you. I mean, success in the sense of like, nobody's gonna end up crying.

No, then fuck buddies.

Yeah, because I also think there's a bigger chance of somebody ending up with a heartbroken...

I mean, you can be a friend with benefits and a fuck buddy, but in general, I think the term, I tend to associate it with it being just somebody where you've met them, the sex is good, and you know that there is no future and you're in that dating

stage with other people. And so you have somebody who's like a constant, so to speak, to blow off some sexual esteem.

Yeah. But I think a note to some ladies here, be aware of you tend to get attached after having sex with a man or a person, and also keep communication very clear.

Sometimes I think you need to be reminded of where the boundaries are before somebody ends up falling for somebody when that was not what was agreed.

Yeah. I mean, there's this whole narrative that women tend to be more attached to men when they have sex than men do with women. But biologically, we end up releasing the same hormones when we have sex, right?

And oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone, is like something that both men and women, regardless of gender, experience. I think men...

Okay. Wait. Because this was part of my first episode that I was like...

I asked the person that came on, I was like, okay, because all I've heard is, it happens the opposite. Before sex, men are super clingy. They'll do anything to get you to sleep with them.

So they're super clingy towards you. And then right after sex, women release the oxytocin. And from the cave times, we are designed to then be like, okay, then you are the cave guard of my cave.

You will provide.

And the men are like...

Yeah, no, no.

No?

Oxytocin is released in everybody during sex.

Okay.

I very strongly believe that how we are conditioned socially determines how we place meaning on things.

So women are taught that sex is sacred, that we need to protect our bodies, that who we give it to makes a difference, that our body count determines our self-worth. And men are taught to have sex with as many women as possible. Yes.

Spread their genes, that they can have whomever they want. Their body count, does it matter? And to just enjoy and take it lightly.

And so for them, also the concept of becoming attached to someone just kind of feels like this nail in the coffin. Where they're like, oh man, like if I settle with this person now, it's like the end of it, right?

Like there's the whole stereotype of the woman begging the man to get married, because the man never wants to settle. But it's very much a social conditioning.

If we were both brought up to believe that sex is something that's free for all of us, and that is abundant, and that we both equally deserve the pleasure in it, and that it doesn't have a greater meaning than simply something that's done for the

sake of it, for because it feels good, and because we want to do that with someone in the moment, then it wouldn't carry the same weight that it does for women compared to men. So, you know, I can hear the manosphere going crazy with us right now,

but I really believe that it's how we are conditioned, because biologically during sex, like we all emit the same feel-good hormones. And honestly, in turn, like men have ten times more testosterone in their bodies than women do.

And so naturally for them, the desire for sex comes more easily. Testosterone is a strong driver of that. So they are also motivated in that sense to want it more, pursue it more.

But it very much is how we're conditioned to think about it, that changes our perception.

I mean, I can't argue that. I think that makes a lot of sense. And there is hope that, yeah, we're not biologically condemned to just like cling on to whoever we sleep with.

Also, I do just want to say that like everybody has different personalities too.

And so some women don't want to sleep around. They don't want to have fuck buddies. They don't like casual sex.

They are more of the charlots of the world. And I think that you just need to respect what feels right for you. Maybe that does have to do with your social conditioning.

But if you try the other way around, it just feels like you are violating your own boundaries. Listen to yourself, right? Listen to your body, like respect that.

Yeah.

Okay. I love that. So speaking of the charlots of this world, Charlotte tries to break her pattern.

She hates the pattern that her friends have diagnosed for her. And she's like, okay, you know what? I'm going to start asking every man that I fancy out.

And she kind of becomes this super dater and asks two men out on one date, on a specific day. And they're like, oh my God, so how are you going to do it?

She's like, well, I'm having early dinner with this dude and then a later supper with this other dude. Because like, you know, like one was going out of town and I was busy the next day and blah, blah, blah. And she gets caught.

So first question is, what do you think is the ideal dating number when you're a woman?

Because I've told you this, I think in New York, I've met a lot of single women that they're like, oh, no, yeah, we date multiple people at the same time, but more because they feel that they have to, because the men do it, not because they enjoy it.

Well, what's the number in London?

I feel like in London, women are a bit more assertive and they don't budge. I don't know who budged in New York, but it kind of like spread like fire. But here, I'm very clear.

I'm like, okay, if I'm dating you, because I don't like the dating culture. I only spend time with people that I think are worthy.

I may entertain a few people at a very specific two-week limbo, but I'm pretty sure of who's going to be at the end line or finish line. So I'm very straight up. I'm like, okay, I like you.

I don't share. If you're seeing other people, let me know and we can figure out how we're going to work this out. But I don't put up with it.

But I think in New York, it's also very much the early stages of dating.

When you go out to dinner, you're getting to know someone, you're in the first three dates. That naturally leads to you spreading it out and hedging your bets. So you're dating three people simultaneously, which is very much what I did as well.

Yeah.

I think it does help you keep your expectations in check. Yes. Also, play it a bit cooler because you have a bit more leverage or whatever you want to call it.

There's always one person that you're like, oh, I like this one the most.

But yes, it does help you to keep your expectations in check because you're also giving yourself a chance to meet more people.

And I think in a world where there's so much optionality, which I think is also one of the problems with modern dating, you are not going to be the only one that's not going to give yourself the optionality if others are too.

But I think you need to do it thoughtfully, consciously.

I mean, I'll say, I think you learn a lot about yourself by dating. So the more people you date, the more you learn. But I think in the US, but especially in New York, it's almost like a professional competition level of dating.

I was like, I go on three dates a week, and I try to sometimes go on two dates on Fridays because then I have the outfit ready and the hair ready and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, it's, it looks so scientific.

But my issue with Charlotte here was that she was lying. I hate to lie. I could not be like her in a date and be like, I think I'm getting sick.

I gotta go and then get caught.

She didn't think it through, obviously, which is what she should have had. But also don't do two dinners. If you're gonna do, if you're gonna double book, which is fine, it happens.

Do drinks with one person and then dinner with the next, right? You wanna make sure that you have it. And you don't owe anybody anything.

You can just say, it's very American in the way that they date, first of all, very different from in Europe. The way that we think of things here of productivity, of maximizing opportunity, that's just a very American way of being.

And that can be frankly very anti-erotic in how we approach it. It can lead to very boring sex when we're always thinking of maximization and egalitarianism and all these things and so...

Such a big agenda for each date.

Yeah, exactly. So I just think that she didn't know how to play her cards right. She could have done two dates.

Also, don't give your address to somebody that you barely know, because he showed up with a suit at her house. And it was just one of those scenes that was also...

1990s, yeah.

A little skeptical of like, why would he even know where she lives at this stage of their dating?

Rookie mistake. Okay, then the other two storylines are a bit... Like, I really want to know your point of view, because Miranda's dating this asshole lawyer that is like super barky, like, badly tempered, short fused.

And she's kind of saying like, oh, you know, it drives me nuts that he always tries to tell me what to do. But then in bed, when he tells me what to do, it really drives me nuts. What do you think about that dynamic?

How often do you see it? What do you think it is about maybe women that like to be, I don't know if I want to say dominated, but like feel like they have no control when Miranda looks like she always likes to be in control of everything.

So sex is where you can safely lose control. And that's the space that we want to explore the taboo. Because remember, ever since we're kids, the forbidden is what makes us want it more.

But in our daily lives, we need to live up to certain expectations. We have jobs to keep and bills to pay and reputations to maintain.

But in four walls in private, you're able to fully let go and explore the things that you wouldn't be able to on the streets.

That's the beauty of eroticism, is that it really does allow you to live a part of your life in private that you wouldn't be able to otherwise and explore and see what that means for you and how it feels.

So it's very natural for a Fortune 500 CEO who is making big responsibilities, big decisions all day, want to go to a dungeon and have his ball smashed by a pro-dom.

One can only hope.

It's the time when he doesn't need to or she doesn't need to be in charge. You just want to completely submit yourself to somebody.

And so one of the things that I hear the most from couples who can seem very vanilla on the outset and that haven't even begun to explore this is we want to explore dom sub-dynamics because you may hate your wife telling you to close down the toilet

When she punishes you.

When she punishes you.

So it's a very, very natural thing. It makes sense. But it's very confusing for people.

And it goes back to what I mentioned about how we live our lives, especially with the very American principles of egalitarianism and respect. And that can truly lead to very boring sex. Esther Perel talks a lot about this.

So often, what we enjoy in bed needs to be a little bit of a violation of these principles that we carry in our daily lives.

Okay. And then the other one is Samantha, your favorite, who is keeping also very true to her pattern, which is keeping a wall between her and whatever sex partner she's seeing.

Because she has this like next door neighbors that like every night after the 11 o'clock news, whatever, they sleep together. And Samantha tries to time her own orgasm with them. And they start having this little knocking relationship.

And eventually she gets like a little letter saying like, please come and say hello, we would love to like break down the walls between us. And Samantha does some very lazy due diligence with the janitor of the building.

Yeah, probably not the smartest decision she's made.

So what are your notes for this? And maybe this can kickstart our advice to the girl. What would be your advice for Samantha if you wanted to explore maybe engaging with your next door neighbors in that?

Go out for a drink first or coffee, try to meet them in a non-sexual setting so that you can see if you even like them to begin with.

Because one thing that happens when we have a desire for sex is whatever aches and threats and all of the things that we may think about when we are like not turned on and we're rationally thinking about something.

When we are turned on, all of that is basically completely deconstructed so that we actually move, we take more risks, we move forward in exploring that, right? But that's when you're like already attracted to someone.

And in order for you to understand if you're going to have that attraction, you do need to meet them in a non-sexual setting.

So, I mean, it reminded me of that show, Love is Blind, but more like Sex is Blind.

And then Samantha, I mean, you're not missing much, but so basically notes is like Samantha, maybe the first time you meet them in person, don't go over in your like best lingerie set.

Exactly, exactly.

All right. Then Carrie is beaten down a dead horse by like keeping on asking John McFadden out on dates, even though the chemistry on their first date was horrible.

And she does say like after that, we went back to mind for a quickie because I needed to erase those last two hours. She tries again and they kind of like both get into this like, oh, I would invite you up, but I have an early morning.

It's like, oh, yeah, no, don't worry, me too. And I think she just ruined for herself her fuck body, her reliable source of like oxytocin, whatever you want to know in between heartbreaks. Would you have any notes for her?

Don't force what is not meant to be there.

And also when you try to bring back what was there before, it's most likely lost because you've broken whatever veal was there that was whatever container that permitted that sort of energy and connection to happen previously.

You'll never be able to erase the snorting sound he made after he said Saki to me, which to this day, whenever I order Saki, I think about that.

That's hilarious.

Okay. What about Miranda? Because Miranda is trying to make it happen with this lawyer that is super mean to her.

And she's just saying, oh, it's just until he gets the partner promotion, then they'll be all right. And I think they're together celebrating it. And Miranda, who tends to be a negative Nancy, is the most optimistic one.

I'm like, I love the champagne, and I love the flowers, and this bread is lovely. And then it's just like, Miranda, please don't piss me off. It's like, you know what?

Lose my number, I'm out, which I wish I could break my pattern as easy as she did. And then she walks, she's walking, runs into Skipper, and Skipper is mean to her. So she's like, have you been working out?

So what would your advice be to Miranda, maybe around Skipper, but also around this man?

My advice would be for you to believe someone when they show you their true colors. And so when you're trying...

It's not about the partnership.

Yeah, it's not about him making partner. It's about how he is on a daily basis, because he's already telling you who he is. You're just trying to hold on to, again, a projected idea of him.

And so if you're okay with how they are showing up on a daily basis, then that's one thing. But if you're holding on to what could be, then it's destined to fail.

And if she called you right after she ran into Skipper, and was like, oh my God, I ran into Skipper. He looks so good. I'm thinking about giving him a call.

Would you like stop her in her tracks and be like...

Yeah, she is... Like Miranda has issues, obviously. We see that through And Just Like That, where she...

Finally, the house comes crumbling down. You know?

I know. She... I don't recognize her.

I was thinking about that as I was watching this episode, I'm like, she's so different to what she used to be.

Yeah.

But... So yeah, I think she still has a lot of work to do.

Even her relationship with Steve was always something that was very forced.

I just feel like it wasn't deep enough.

No.

Like it didn't fulfill either of them in any more way than like a very superficial that was like, oh, this is kind of very nice in the surface. I think he... But like, I don't think Miranda ever respected him.

I think he always wanted her, but also she was the bigger catch.

And she just never gave herself the chance to meet somebody who was more aligned to her and to what she was looking for.

So she just kept on going back to like, you know, the scene with like Skipper and then, you know, Steve and I feel like Miranda just never gave herself a true shot.

Ted Diaz also, not for her. Okay.

And then last but not least, Charlotte, who after giving a try to be maybe dating a couple of people at the same time or three people, she decides against listening to her friends ever again and going back to her, you know, white night, whatever.

What would you tell her?

I would tell Charlotte that I don't think she has a bad pattern. I think she has an honest pattern. I just think that she needs to have more realistic expectations of what can come from each date.

And so you should go into a date being curious to get to know them as a friend and not necessarily as a romantic partner off the bat. Because curiously enough, I am friends with a lot of people that I've hooked up with in the past.

And I think that's because I've always approached the dates from very much of a friendly perspective of just having fun and getting to know each other and thinking, do I want to go on the next date and not necessarily like, do I want to build a life?

Which I used to do that, but I think that I turned that into something healthier once I started approaching this from a friendlier perspective.

What made you do that?

Just getting my face broken. That's a term that we use in Portuguese, but I would throw myself head first into everything, and I quickly learned that that was not going to get me anywhere. But I'm a Pisces and cancer rising.

Super romantic.

I'm super romantic, and it does not matter how many times my heart breaks, I will keep on going.

But when I moved to New York from Brazil after I finished my long-term relationship in Brazil, I realized here how aggressive dating was.

And so I did the apps for the first couple of months and became super overwhelmed with them and decided that I wanted to meet my person in person. And a few months went by, and then that's when I met my husband.

I think when you really believe, like when you do things that are genuinely aligned with what you want, with what you believe in, I think they happen in any aspect in life. And I knew that the apps weren't for me.

So I was willing to take that risk and hop off them and meet somebody in person. And hopefully a friend, a friend to friend. I wanted someone who was Brazilian, spoke Portuguese.

I really enjoy my culture and speaking my language. But because I was here and juggling a ton of dates, I knew that this was going to be funner if I came into it with like a more friendly perspective.

And then that's how I'm still friends with a bunch of the guys that I went on dates with.

Okay, I have a couple of questions. Because what would you say to maybe girls that are thinking the same, that like they want to step off the apps, but like they're like, oh, I don't even know how to meet a guy organically.

And then the other one, I personally, I hate apps, but like I sometimes will go on apps just to give myself homework, to gamify it a little bit and be like, you know what, your homework today is to like leave, as soon as you know this date is not for

you. Because I tend to stay until I am dismissed, because that is the culture that I grew up in. So what would you say that are like a few tricks to maybe don't see dating as such a like daunting thing, and maybe get to meet somebody organically?

You need to look for people in the places that you enjoy frequenting or doing the activities that you enjoy doing, because then you're naturally going to meet somebody who has aligned interests.

So if you are genuinely, if you are somebody who loves gastronomy, and that's where you spend a lot of your money, and you're out at restaurants and cocktail bars, and you have friends that come along, you will most likely meet someone in that

environment. And I know people say like meeting somebody at a bar might not be, I mean, I guess in London, meeting at the pub might not be the most far-out idea.

I think the pub is an excellent place.

I think it's excellent too. It's just that now drinking isn't cool anymore in America. So, you know, people get a little bit, but you know, if you like to run, do the running club.

If you like to play tennis, pickleball, like frequent the places where you're doing these hobbies and meet people, be open to meeting people.

The pickleball courts here in New York that are free, that are by the Hudson River are like the hottest dating spot. I tell all of my single friends, like, go play pickleball. It's an easy sport for you to learn and it's super social.

It's not this like exclusive situation like tennis is. And so I think there's just plenty of opportunities. You just need to put yourself out there.

And sometimes that you can have that like inertia to do it. But and ask your friends, but also just want to say, ask your friends, like tell them, like, I want to meet somebody. If you know someone, I was so vocal about this.

And eventually I met my husband through a friend in common. What were you going to say?

That is so funny, that pickleball. Like I think that is so wholesome and good.

In Spain, I don't know if you saw this on Instagram or TikTok, but there was this trend where people went to pick up people at Mercadona, which is like this cheap supermarket. And the trick was to put a pineapple upside down in your trolley.

And people would just roam around that supermarket with a pineapple. And that was the pick up.

I love that.

I like pickleball more. All right, Natassia, I think that's it for the episode. Thank you so much.

I would love for you to tell our listeners what you've been up to since the last time that you were on and anything that you think they should know.

I'm doing coaching with couples. So any issues that you may be going through that you want to overcome between your sex life and your relationship, it's very goal and action oriented. So I've just been having a really great time working with couples.

So if you're looking for that, I am your person.

Awesome. I'll pop also in the show notes, your Instagram and website and again, that game of the cards because I thought that was a very fun game to maybe have in your dating days.

Yes. Sounds good.

All right. Well, thank you so much, Mikaela. We'll see you soon.

Take care.

Bye.