The Madonna-Whore Complex, Dating Your Friend's Ex & Why Charlotte Touching Herself Was the Bravest Thing She Did All Season — S3E16 with Jessica Fern

About This Episode

In Season 3 episode sixteen of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV is joined by psychotherapist, trauma expert and author of Polysecure, Polywise and Transforming the Shame Triangle, Jessica Fern, to unpack Sex and the City's "Frenemies." It's the episode where Miranda gets stood up and calls the man's mother to complain — only to find out he died. Charlotte wears see-through lingerie and gets shot down, then takes it off and touches herself instead, and it finally works. Carrie tries to teach a room of women how to meet men and gets asked for a refund. Samantha and Charlotte have the worst fight of the series over whose relationship to sex is more valid.

What We Cover

• How long is too long to wait before texting a no-show date — and what the age of the landline has to do with it

• The Madonna-whore complex in 2025: Jessica's session earlier that day proves it's still very much alive

• Why women judge each other for not hitting relationship milestones on time — and what's really behind it

• Carrie calling the Learning Annex women "desperate": what that reveals about internalised misogyny

• Are women becoming more cynical about dating, or just more disappointed? Jessica's honest answer

• Where to actually meet men when the apps have broken your spirit — following your interests over optimising your algorithm

• Dating a best friend's ex: where Jessica personally stands, and how Miranda navigated it better than most

• Charlotte performing in lingerie vs. Charlotte touching herself: why authenticity finally worked where performance didn't

• Charlotte owning her desire for the first time: what it means when a woman claims her own pleasure in front of her husband

• Do you actually like him, or do you just like that he likes you? The question Jessica asks every client

• Parts work and internal family systems: how to heal the shame around desire at the root

• Miranda dating Jim despite Carrie's warning: scarcity mentality or genuine second chances?

• Surrounding yourself with women who don't police your sexuality: why community is part of the healing

About Our Guest

Jessica Fern is a psychotherapist, trauma expert and author of Polysecure, Polywise and Transforming the Shame Triangle — books that have changed how millions of people understand attachment, love and shame. She is currently running an eight-week live course on her latest book alongside co-author David Cooley. Find everything at jessicafern.com — all links in the show notes.

Transcript

Welcome back, Boundary Babes. This week's episode is a lot of fun and a little spicy. My guest is Jessica Fern, psychotherapist, trauma expert, and author of Polysecure and Transforming the Shame Triangle, amongst others.

She essentially wrote the book on attachment theory and shame in relationships, and she had some generally great takes.

We get into the Madonna-whore complex, still very much alive, unfortunately, how women judge each other's sexual choices, whether it's ever okay to date your best friend's ex, Amanda Batula.

And yes, some practical advice on where to meet men when the apps have broken your spirit. Jessica was wonderful. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

I'll see you on the other side. I love you all. Bye.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I am delighted to be joined today by Jessica Fern.

She is a psychotherapist, trauma expert, and author whose groundbreaking work bridges attachment theory with a full spectrum of how we love.

She is the mind behind Polysecure, Polywise, and her latest, Transforming the Shame Triangle, books that have changed the way millions people understand themselves and their relationships. Welcome, Jessica. How are you?

I'm good.

Thank you, Isabel.

I love your latest book because I think it really bridges into today's episode that we're going to discuss, which is season 3, episode 16 of Sex and the City, for enemies. We get introduced to this episode with Miranda getting ready for a first date.

She's super excited. Then she basically three hours into waiting for the first date to arrive, she calls Carrie and she's like, I think I've been stood up. What do you think about this?

When do you think that it's like a time to call, I'm sorry for the pun, the death of the first date that is not going to arrive? Because I've been there where I'm like, I don't want to seem too eager. So where do I text?

15 minutes into the waiting or don't text at all. Just get the message.

Three hours to me seemed way long, personally.

I think it was the age of the landline.

Totally. It was still the time of the landline.

That's right.

There wasn't texting. Because now it would be like 15, 20 minutes you would text and be like, hey, I'm waiting for you or running late.

So I love that Miranda is trying to be like super okay with it. And she's like, you know what, I am older now. This hasn't happened to me in years.

I don't understand. I should have been smarter. I can't believe he's standing me up.

Do you want to go out for a drink? Carrie says now she has to work because she's been invited to do this lectures at the Learning Annex.

But Miranda decides that she's going to call the landline that will who's this cutie that she met at Starbucks gave her. And she calls in a woman answers and she's like, Hi, is Will there? It's like, No, this is William's mother.

She's like, Well, I'd like to tell you, you've raised somebody who stands people up on dates. The mother is like, I'm so sorry, Will's dead.

He died.

Yes. Do you think, like I'm not sure that I would have given it to the mother like that. Like, do you think that that was an appropriate reaction from Miranda to be like, You know what?

You raised a boy.

It was right. It was heavy handed. I talk about this a lot with clients who really take things personally.

And I'm like, come up with three legitimate reasons that they could not be texting you back or calling that don't have to do with you. And one of it is always like, maybe their phone died or maybe something difficult happened to them.

And I always joke, and maybe they were abducted by aliens. I don't say maybe they died. But as I was watching this, I was like, this is what I'm talking about.

Like, you know, to be more generous with people about maybe why they aren't reaching out.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the girls comment about this branch where they're like, well, that explains why they stopped calling.

I know she said at least you weren't stood up.

It was better that he died, because at least he didn't stand her up.

Which is, yeah, I agree. It's a better for Miranda. But as the introduction to the episode is happening, and we see Miranda being stood up, we also see Samantha getting veiled in her bedroom, having the best time of her life.

Charlotte having a very frustrating show encounter with Trey, because they're still trying to figure out their bedroom problems.

And they start talking about this at brunch, as they all agree that kudos for not getting stood up, at least the dude is dead. And Charlotte starts opening up about the fact that it's just not working out with Trey.

And she starts saying, I just got so pent up. I don't think she says horny, but she's saying horny. And she's like, I almost masturbated.

And Samantha's so cute. She's like, well, he almost got it up. You almost masturbated.

You almost got it put together. You guys almost had sex. But I'm very curious about what you think of Charlotte in this moment.

Cause like my heart broke for her, for feeling so ashamed about masturbating next to her husband.

Yeah. There is a lot that I felt. I felt disappointed or sad that, you know, he couldn't get up.

So then sex is just done. Like that there isn't another option for them to be doing other stuff, for him to be pleasuring her, for him to be touching her. None of that seemed on the table.

So she's really left alone. And then, right, the shame that she would dare to touch herself, even though she has a husband or she's next to her husband. So yeah, I also felt really sad for her.

I love that you also talk about all the other things that could have happened.

I think there's a lot left out that they could have been exploring.

Yeah.

But I love that Samantha, as flippant as she can be when things are not the way that she expects them to be. Because I think Charlotte says like, oh, he masturbates to like women with massive jugs and whatever.

But like whenever it's me and we talk about sex with me, he cannot get it done. And Samantha says, is the Madonna whore complex? Do you think that in this day and age, there's still some of that going on in the dating world?

Absolutely.

I wish I would say no. I mean, I think there is more like other options of maybe archetypes that women can be than just this binary of the Madonna whore.

But literally in a session I had with a couple earlier today, it came up as a topic and I knew we were going to talk. I didn't bring it up. They did.

And I was like, here it is in a modern marriage. They're in an open marriage and the wife is grappling with her desire.

Meaning that she then is a whore, even in a context where she has a husband who says, yeah, you can go explore your desire, not just with me, but even other people. And she had all this internalized struggle of, well, does it mean she's a whore?

That is so interesting because I think that at least my generation got given this kind of like nirvana place where you're like, if you eventually find a partner that you trust and that you're comfortable with, then you can scrap all that and you can

safely explore whatever it is that you want to explore because it is a safe place. And I am very surprised to hear that even in a marriage where you've like not only have a safe partner, but like there's security, there's probably like, you know, you

Yeah, I think it still shows up where in dating too, where women like want to show that they're available and sexually available, but not too much.

And this balance that they feel like, oh, I want to be sexy. And if I'm not sexy, I won't get them kind of thinking. But then if I go too far, then I'm not actually like worth staying with.

Yeah, what is it that they call it?

Like a high-value woman.

Right, yeah.

And I think this ties in really well with Carrie's storyline, because she gets invited to teaching these lectures at the Learning Annex, where she's supposed to teach women how to meet men.

And even when she tells Miranda on the phone, as Miranda's telling her, like, I got sued up, they keep referring to these women as desperate women.

And I'm very curious to know, what do you think of that? Because, like, I honestly, I think I have a bit of that in me, like, oh, I would never go. But it's OK if you go, if I'm really honest.

But, like, I thought it was so mean.

To be calling these women desperate.

Yes.

Yeah, right. I think they're not actually desperate. It's such a judgment.

It's such a put down that women are looking for partnership and connection that doesn't make them desperate.

And especially, like, if it's not working out, try something else. And if that is the Learning Annex surrounded by other women, that to me sounds like a lot of fun.

Right.

Especially knowing Carrie. But I really want to go into the scene because Carrie goes in there and, like, asks, she's saying, like, she's staying in almost every night working because she's been offered this lectures.

It looks very half-assed what she does, she's like, Oh, wow, I am so like, what is it? Like, I feel like, what are you guys doing here? Well, you know, I've dated some some man and, you know, there's been ugly, bad and horrible.

And I don't know what to say.

She's been in the city.

Yeah. And, you know, they're right around the corner. They're grabbing their coffee when you're grabbing your coffee.

They're at the bookshop when you're grabbing that bookshop. And it's just like she introduces that trying to be cute, funny, self-deprecating. And then there's like silence.

Right. And they start asking questions like, how old are you? Are you married?

Then why are we listening to you?

Right.

What do you think about that kind of judgment that women have embedded in us that we judge each other for kind of like getting some milestones at certain times? And the way that we treat each other when we don't?

Right. Well, it's horrible, to say the least, right?

That to turn against each other in this way instead of be understanding or supportive, because part of the love of the character of Carrie is that she doesn't want to be married and she's claimed that.

And the whole show is about some of these women who are really living their best life. And there was such an appeal. I think that's why the show is so popular, is women not needing to get married.

You know, so it was like, oh, interesting that they're like putting her down for that, that that's coming through. And she's like, let's live in a sorority on relationships because she's not married. And that's not necessarily the case at all.

No, it was such a carnage.

But I think then Carrie goes back home and she starts writing about it like, is this true that I'm not getting wiser? I'm not learning any lessons. I'm just getting older and more confused and I might die alone.

What do you think about maybe dating when you're older? Because I'm in my mid 30s. I'm turning 37 soon.

I'm still single. I feel like I've always wanted a partner. But I don't feel excited at the thought of like leaving everything that I have being behind for what I've been offered so far.

The bar is low.

The bar for others is low or is it actually really high?

I feel like men's effort to me has been underwhelming. So I feel like in my older years...

Why would you keep up your freedom in your life?

Yes.

Yes.

So how do you feel that maybe, do you think that women maybe become more cynical? Do we learn our lessons? Do we date better?

I think a lot of women are cynical, and it's hard to...

I don't want to put it on them though, because there's a lot of good reasons why they're cynical. Even still in the modern era, men are still not conditioned to be as relationally focused as women are, and as attuned.

I'm speaking in a generality, of course, but I do see it consistently that there's even in what you'd look at as a, oh, that's a really beautiful marriage.

There's still those kind of gender imbalances that show up, where a woman wants the man to be doing more of the emotional labor. It's not just that women are cynical, it's that women are disappointed. Women are not overwhelmed by these great options.

It's tough, because I think at least my generation, it's still very much on the Disney happy ending.

So you're wired to that happy ending be the end or be all. And apparently the only credential that the women want it from Carrie to give.

She was married.

Advice. Yeah. But I think, hopefully, I haven't become cynical.

I'm just more aware of time passing. So I'm quicker to say, you know what, not for me.

Right. Well, it's not that long ago that women couldn't even have their own bank account unless they were married. So it's really only talking about 40, 50 years ago.

I think it's shifted that women didn't need men to survive in the world, in this country, at least, but in many countries. So just how much that's changed the game, though, to not have to need a man to be okay and function and survive in the world.

Women can do it themselves now. So the needs have relifted. The bar should be raised.

And after this, we're at the wake.

Miranda has brought Carrie with her. And Carrie is very funny because she's like, first, she comments on the fact that I was like, Oh my God, an open casket, I can't look, I've never seen the dead body.

She was like, He was so cute.

And they go to the wake and Carrie's just like, Oh my God, this is what I should tell my pupils to come and look for men. It's like packed with men that are so hot and young.

And they run into Jim, who is like this ex of Carrie's and Miranda seems to be interested. And as Jim goes to grab drinks for them, Carrie's just like, don't do it. He's an asshole.

And then just like, Oh, but he seems nice. She's like, yep, that's what I thought. But like, let me tell you, it was all nice until it wasn't.

And when it wasn't, asshole, she's like, Okay, you go do your thing. I'll go and have a drink with Jim. They end up exchanging numbers and making plans to go out.

I'm curious, where do you stand? And I know that you have two books called Polyamorous and Polywise. But where do you stand on maybe dating a friend's ex?

Personally, I wouldn't.

And yet I've seen other people who have been able to navigate it. Well, I appreciate in the episode Miranda, they're walking and talking a scene or two later.

And she really checks in with her and makes sure it's okay and sort of gets the green light. So I thought that was a really nice example of how the friendship was put first. I mean, I was thinking about it.

I was like, oh, right. In sort of high school, there was this group of friends. We all grew up together and everyone kind of dated each other in those years.

And we navigated it okay. But so much of my close female friendships are about processing our relationships.

So it would be really strange actually to then go and date a friend of mine's ex, who I probably processed a ton of that relationship with them. And it would feel like a betrayal even if I got the blessing.

No, I have to agree. It's so weird. But then the girls are at brunch.

And this is a point in the show that I found very interesting because they really put Samantha and Charlotte's views on sex head to head.

Because we obviously know that Charlotte is going through a lot with Trey, where she's not getting anywhere with him and their relationship. And Samantha is just like, is it boasting? I think it's boasting.

Boasting about the fact that she got like, stick down good with him. And she just, she always looks so relaxed and so happy. And Charlotte, you can tell that she's angry and she's like, what does he even do?

And she's like, I don't know. It's like, what do you mean you don't know? You slept with him.

And she's like, exactly. I don't need to know. And they start having kind of like this, two opposing female versions of how we should relate to sex.

And I'm really curious to know what you think about this. Like, how do you think that maybe social norms shape the way that women judge each other about our sexual choices?

Yeah, right. Cause one of those social norms is that like, sex is supposed to be sacred within the container of marriage and it's allowed there, but it shouldn't go outside of that.

And then here we have the other character that's like, be a sex goddess, embrace your pleasure and your desire and go for it. And it doesn't have to be in a relationship. So yeah, I think culture has a big deal to do with it.

And even if people aren't religious themselves, like the religions that were around them growing up really have an influence on this.

Yeah, of course. But I think they kind of like point at each other. And Samantha is just like so hurt because I think Charlotte almost calls her a slut.

And she's like, I'm a what? I'm a what? And she says like, I at least have sex.

And it's just so ugly. But then Samantha says like, you know what? Everyone can't forget about coming with me to Samba.

I guess Samba was open in New York.

Yeah.

And she's like, nobody's invited. So Charlotte kind of like goes and feels very self righteous about the way that she relates to sex. And so does Samantha.

And they kind of go on their separate ways. And then Miranda and Jim are out again on a date. And it's kind of sweet.

And then Miranda calls Carrie and she's like, I really like him. He's just super sweet. And Carrie's super confused.

And Miranda's like, listen, he says wonderful things about you. So I feel weird dating somebody that you don't like. Will you please go out and check him out again?

What do you think about being in that conundrum of seeing somebody who your best friend hates?

Right. I appreciated that she was like, it seems like he's changed. And will you at least hang out so we can update the narrative that he's grown?

So I thought it was a good solution. Yeah.

Sometimes I'm like, okay, let's just keep them separate. They're not meant to be. But I also...

These friends are too close for that.

Yeah.

Right.

There's certain friendships where it's like, oh, if my partner, my best friend, don't get along, somewhere along the way, this isn't going to work.

Yeah. Do you think that it's okay? Because if I put myself in Miranda's shoes, I'd be talking to Jim and being like, okay, can you please make an effort to be super nice?

Do you think it's fair to maybe put that kind of pressure on your partner? Or you should just let it play out?

I would let it play out. But I think she was wanting to bring them together to bridge the gap.

Yeah.

And sort of have them see each other, yeah, eight years later or something.

Yeah. I think being fair to Miranda, she generally thought that Jim was a good dude. So that's why she was...

Yeah.

Right. And they play it up that way too, where we're like, oh, she has grown. You know, he seems like a great guy.

Like we're along on that ride.

There's just teeny tiny red flags where he's like hyper aware of the details and like very stuck in holding some certain grudges. But yeah, otherwise he seems like a nice guy.

But then because Charlotte has gone off to like live her best life as the self-righteous, pure woman that she is, she reconnects with her sorority sisters.

And they're all at lunch and sharing about their marriages. And I think somebody says like, Oh, I remember being newlywed. We didn't leave the bedroom.

And he was like, Oh my God, Rachel is like, what? It's us, just girls. I think Charlotte takes this cue to be like, Well, my husband cannot get it up.

Did you just want to be like just pounded once like every once in a while? Everybody's like, Oh my God, Charlotte, I think you've had enough to drink. And I was like, leave.

And Charlotte was like, fine. What do you think about the scene? What do you make of it?

Do you think that Charlotte overshared? Or do you think that the other girls are just like fake?

All of the above. I mean, I think she didn't read the room, right? Clearly these women were more buttoned up and just saying we were newlyweds that didn't get out of the bed was already too scandalous to bring to the table.

And that comment opened the door for her to reveal. But yeah, she goes into more like graphic details. She gets too explicit for the crowd, right?

The head banging against the headboard. Yeah.

But I love that to her sorority girl, she was Samantha.

Exactly. I love how they play in this episode, the relativity, right? She's now the Samantha of this foursome of women.

While Samantha is meeting Clare Anne, who is even more out there than she is, and she turns into her own Charlotte.

But this next scene that I want to dissect is one of my favorite scenes of Sex and the City. One, because I think Charlotte looks gorgeous, but also because of what happens.

Charlotte went shopping with Carrie to get some sexy lingerie, and she literally says, I don't want to look like myself.

I want to be somebody else. I don't want to be myself, yeah.

And she's wearing this kind of like see-through long dress, and Trey looks up, and I love that Charlotte, again, looks great. And Trey is like, what are you wearing? You're my wife.

You're not like that. Take it off.

Which is, honestly, I was thinking if I were as vulnerable as to show my naked body in a way that is like a bit out there for the person that is supposed to love me whole, and he puts me down like that, I'd be crushed.

I know, right. She took such a risk to sort of doll up and dress up for him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I applaud her. This is the moment where Charlotte is the best. She's like, fine.

So she takes it off, and she starts touching herself. And he's like, what are you doing? And at the beginning, you can see that he is like, this is not something that my wife would do.

And then she says, I am touching myself. And she says something like, I'm your wife. I am sexual.

I love you.

Exactly. I loved that line.

Yes. And they managed to have sex. But I'm curious to know, like, what do you think of this?

Do you think that maybe Charlotte is doing too much of the heavy lifting in the relationship? Do you think that she was wrong to maybe take that approach to somebody who was like, obviously, so fragile as?

I think it was a good example of if you're trying to be someone else, it doesn't work.

She wasn't, even though she looked gorgeous and she's in this super sexy see-through dress and her nipples are coming through, and she's got red lipstick on, her hair is done, but it wasn't authentic, and so it didn't turn him on.

And then she takes it off and she really actually reveals herself. And then for the first time, we see her own her own pleasure by touching herself, which we have not seen in this dynamic.

It's all about him and what's happening and not really about her desire and pleasure. So I saw it as like, oh, she just woke up in that moment in her own eroticism or not. She's showing the true sexual self, not the performance.

He was trying to perform something before.

Yeah. And I think she's very goal-oriented. So she's super happy.

I don't think probably the sex wasn't that good, but she's very happy that she got her soul.

I think they said it was in the mid and half, but she's happy.

She's so happy. And she says, she knew that the person that would appreciate this the most was Samantha. And they call each other and they completely put aside the fact that they had a massive fight.

And they have like a really cute exchange where they go back into their respective roles, but they share that. And the episode closes with Carrie going back to the Learning Annex.

And she's just like, oh my God, can you believe that some people asked for a refund after my first lesson? So she rocks up and there's like a whole of six women left.

And there was like a hundred women in the room.

Yes. And she's just like, okay, well, we're not going to learn how to meet men over here. So like grab your purses and like we're going to the bar.

And that's how the episode closes. So I'm going to catapult this into the advice to the girls. So for Carrie, how would you have handled that lesson?

Where would you say that you can find men?

I tell people to go with where they actually want to be. So I mean, some people are dating successfully on the apps. Some people hate the apps.

But I'm seeing a lot of people like follow your interests in social spaces, of course. They can't really be just individual interests, right? Where you're home by yourself.

If someone's taking a dance class, I literally had this week and they're like, yeah, I met someone because I'm going out and dancing and someone wants to dance with me and voila, there it was because they didn't want to get on the date app.

Yeah.

So following yourself and where you want to be in the world, even if that's a bookshop or a coffee store or whatever. I flip those words.

I'm also seeing a lot of people get set up by friends and that isn't like old school yet potential successful way that it works as well.

Yeah. I think I've seen a lot of like fatigue from dating apps. And I used to hear that like, you know, pick up a hobby that you're interested in and like that's how you...

I used to think like that's bullshit. But actually, because I work from home and I spend a lot of time alone, the one place where I found my past boyfriend slash flings has been like the only other place that I go to, which is the gym. So, it's true.

And it needs to be something that you really enjoy because I think then you keep going. And then they also see you through the lens of like, okay, this is who she is when she's in her element.

That's right.

Yeah. Okay. What about Charlotte?

How would you maybe tell a client to overcome the Madonna whore complex? And I'm curious because I know that maybe this comes too close to like the non-disclosure that you have with your clients.

But like, I'm curious to know if the marriage that you were talking about before was her own, like she had that in her head or was the husband that thought...

That's a great and confidential because they're right now just, right, two floating humans who I don't know. It was not in their dynamic, thankfully. Her husband is great and is not imposing that Madonna whore onto her.

But what we processed today was she felt the cultural legacy burden of it, of generations and generations of women who have held that within them.

Yeah.

And so it's internalized in her as shame. But we were placing and it didn't start with her. It started way beyond her.

And it was really helpful for him to see that and go, oh, right, this is bigger than just you and me. And maybe you going on a date with someone else. It's a social cultural thing that's been going on.

So what do you think are like a few steps that you can take towards maybe feeling more comfortable?

Is it just a matter of like just going out there and doing the things and like slowly your mind will catch up? Or do you think that there are some things that you can do like background work to get to that place faster?

Yeah, absolutely. I love doing parts work, internal family systems with people. So looking at the parts of you that are holding the shame and working to heal them and unburden them that will go tremendously far.

And then also the parts of you that are excited about sex or dating or like the lover sides of you, and letting those come more into the center. So that's usually the work that I'm doing with people.

And then surrounding yourself by other women in this case that share those values that aren't going to be shaming or policing of you.

I think that's a great point, because I do think women always understand other women's background more than anyone. And once you feel them uplifting you, I think there's tremendous magic and power in it.

Yes, exactly.

Okay, what about Samantha? Do you think that she was being insensitive and sharing in front of Charlotte? And how couldn't you remain closed with a girlfriend that maybe has such a different opinion and a way to relate to sex than you have?

Yeah, I don't think she was being insensitive, because I feel like she didn't know what was going on so much with Charlotte.

And it almost felt like a lot of that tension in the episode was because Charlotte was kind of envious. Like I think if Charlotte wasn't having issues with Trey, she probably would have just been delighted in Samantha being Samantha.

And I think that's a lot of the competition between women, unfortunately, is some version of that. It's like, oh, you're getting it and I don't have it, so I'm pissed. But we don't want to say it that way, because it seems petty.

Yeah, so we make it about a bigger thing of right and wrong. Yeah, so I thought Samantha was fine, actually. I mean, I don't remember if she was empathetic or not to Charlotte.

I think she was, but she got so hurt when her friend, who knows her inside and out, almost called her a slut.

That's when she went below the belt.

That's right. And then told everyone they couldn't go to salsa or she couldn't go to salsa.

I love that she held that over everyone's head.

Yeah, right. She was a leverage.

Okay. And finally, Miranda, do you think her judgment was clouded and also her standards because she got a bit of this scarcity mentality once her date passed away?

Yeah, I think so. I think she was feeling really bummed that she had this potential of a great guy and then he died. And then she took the next guy that showed up even though she was warned about him.

And I think the common thing that like women, I ask women a lot, I'm like, do you actually like him or you just like that he likes you?

What do you think is a good way to tell the difference?

Like if you're sitting across the table from a man or a potential partner, you know, like, do you actually respect who you see? You actually have even like, oh, I'm feeling a sense of admiration or excitement about who they are.

Different than, oh, it feels really good to get attention. It feels good that they might be adoring of me, but do you actually like who they are? Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I can't be in something just because somebody likes me. I need a bit of like the pool, which sometimes looks like a roller coaster. So that's my...

But Jessica, that's it for the episode. Thank you so much for coming on. I would love for you to tell our listeners what you're working on, that you're excited, any courses, the latest book that you want to talk about.

Yeah.

My latest book is Transforming the Shame Triangle. And my co-author is David Cooley. We're actually doing an eight-week course right now, that's live on the book.

And we'll probably be doing some version of it later this year, as well as some in-person offerings to really go deep into those inner parts. So people can see any of that on my website, jessicafern.com.

I'll plug it in the show notes.

Great. Yeah.

Thank you so much, Jessica. I'll see you soon. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy.

If you loved it, follow the podcast, leave a five-star review and send this episode to somebody who needs it. It really helps the show. And don't forget about our new segment this season, Please Not You Mr.

Big. If you have a love dilemma you want answered by one of our in-house experts, you can now submit directly through the form of my website. The link is in the show notes.

Or if you prefer to keep it personal, slide in to my DMs on Instagram at wefoundtherapypod. See you at our next therapy session. I love y'all.

Bye.