Season 2 Wrap-Up — Carrie’s bootcamp or A Man Reacts to Everything, with Tom Flaherty

About This Episode

In the Season 2 wrap-up of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV brings in her friend Tom Flaherty — who has never watched a single episode of Sex and the City in his life — to hear the entire season from Carrie's perspective and give an unfiltered male reaction in real time. Episode by episode, Isabel plays Carrie, Tom plays the devastatingly honest guy friend, and the result is one of the most useful conversations of the entire series.

What We Cover

• Can you use sex to move a man emotionally — or does it only move you?

• Why showing up last-minute to save the night is bare minimum behaviour dressed up as romance

• Red roses with the message "happy birthday, best wishes" — romantic signal or wishful thinking?

• The moment he said "if you say so" instead of "I love you" — what that actually means

• Why hiding that you're back with your ex from your friends is always a red flag

• People don't change: the exception vs. the rule, and why the first year of a relationship is a performance

• Consistency as the most underrated trait in dating — and why flakiness is never acceptable at any age

• The picture hidden in the sock drawer: adorable or still not enough?

• Premature ejaculation is fixable — refusing to talk about it is the real problem

• Why "I wasn't ready" means nothing the moment someone meets the right person

• The hardest question of the season: why wasn't it me?

• Tom's cold hard truth: it's not about commitment issues — it's about whether he's into you

About Our Guest

Tom Flaherty is the host of Rejection Rehab — a podcast about navigating rejection in dating, life and everything in between. Find it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube and all social platforms at @rejectionrehab. Isabel MV made a full appearance on the show — link in the show notes.

Transcript

Welcome back, guys, and happy Valentine's Weekend, lovers and avoiders alike. Now, if you've been thinking about rekindling things with your ex, this is an episode you'll want to listen to. I am joined by Tom Flaherty in the Season 2 Rap episode.

We revisit the moments that taught us the most about desire, power, and emotional truth. We talk about whether chemistry can cloud your judgment, and if going back ever really gives you closure.

And the uncomfortable question, can you use sex to move a man emotionally? Or does it only move you? Consider this your final therapy session before Season 3 starts next week.

I can't wait to show it to you guys. I hope you enjoy this episode. And please don't forget to share it with your friends, subscribe, and rate me 5 stars.

Bye! I've been practicing all day.

We'll practice, we'll spend.

Thank you. And today, Tom has agreed as a king of rejection in many shapes and forms to be the first friend to guide me through Carrie's Bootcamp, which is a very cute name because of Barry's Bootcamp.

But this is going to be a kind of like role play where Tom is going to be my guy friend, helping me through being Carrie through season two of Sex and the City. So I will do an episode by episode. And how much do you know about Carrie and Mr.

Big?

I want to start by saying I have not watched a single episode in my life of Sex and the City.

Basically, I will pretend to be Carrie Bratshaw, and you're going to be my friend, and you're going to give me the guy's perspective as to what is going on with my relationship.

Bring it. Bring it.

All right, Tom, buckle up, Buttercup, because this is going to be a ride.

Strap in. Let's go.

2:14

Early Relationship Struggles

All right.

The first episode is called Take Me Out to the Bowl Game. This is right after the Season 1 wrapped, and that last episode, Carrie was forcing Mr. Vick to tell her, tell me I'm the one, tell me you love me.

And he said, I can't do it, but I'll take you to St. Barts. And she said, I can go, and they break up.

So, she's basically licking, well, I am basically licking my wounds. And I actually probably know, like his name was not John Snow, but whatever, he was a very cute, pro athlete, new guy for the Knicks.

You live in New York, so you know what a big deal that is.

The Knicks or the Yankees?

Oh, the Yankees, sorry. Just baseball.

Sorry, I'll try and get the sporting analogies right, you try and get the sex and the city analogies right, and then we'll do it, okay.

That was so Carrie of me, okay.

You're in character.

I'm in character.

You're so in character. Okay, got it.

Yeah. So I invite him to a Dolce & Gabbana party, and I max out my credit card, and I tell you, Tom, you know what? It's not because I want to stick it up to Mr.

Big, but my page ended up on page six, and I'm with the new Yankee. What do you think about that?

If he's really not in love with her, and she's really not the one for him, I've got to say, and this also you're going to be like, you're not a good friend, but if someone's not in love with you, and you're not that, you know, the one, I don't think

it's going to hurt him. It might make him think twice. It might make him think, oh, she's a catch, and she's with this other guy. Maybe I should have made more of an effort, but I don't think he's suddenly going to fall in love with you slash Carrie.

Are we talking about it as if it were you, or are we talking about it as if it's Carrie?

Same, same. We're one and the same.

We'll just say, and the other thing he might be thinking is this, is maybe she's trying super hard to get me to see this or to make me feel jealous, which might actually...

Backfire?

Yeah, it might actually work against you.

But this is not like Instagram. This is like, oops, my life's so fabulous that I ended up on page six. We skip over to episode two.

It's my birthday. I received a bouquet of red roses from Mr. Big.

That's a happy birthday, best wishes, Mr. Big. So I'm very touched.

I think it means something. I'm having a little get together for my birthday. So I decide to invite him.

And then I realize I'm not over him. Do you think that it was a bad decision to invite him to my birthday?

I think if there's any possibility of getting back with someone, you obviously have to physically see them, right?

I think the question is, is it desperate, you know, inviting someone to your birthday, that you're not over, and they're kind of, they've already put you to kind of, they've already explained their position, that you're not the one for them, and they

are basically not prioritizing you. And so whilst I think that, yes, you have to physically see someone if there's any chance of getting back with them.

Don't forget, he sent me a bouquet of red roses, and you know what red roses mean.

What was the message he sent in the red roses again?

Something like, happy birthday, best wishes.

Oh, okay. So I do know red roses are obviously quite romantic. The message didn't sound super romantic.

Slightly mixed signals there.

What do you think he's thinking? Because at the end of the day, I want the guy's perspective. Received a bouquet of roses.

So I call him to say, thank you. Then I kind of tell him, like, listen, I am having a little get together. Pass by if you want.

I got myself into that. He kind of says that he's going to bring someone with him. I freak out thinking it's a date.

Turns out it's his guy friend. Okay. I'm so relieved.

I realize as I spend more and more time with him, because I end up in my celebration, just him and I at the end of the night, I realize how much I am not over him. Do you think he's thinking? Do you think he's still also not over me?

Do you think it was a bad thing?

Was he ever in love with you?

Yeah.

Oh, he was? Okay. But then he basically...

He's just extremely unavailable.

To frame this, the whole time, even if he is choosing her, it's a very lopsided relationship where he doesn't fully make room for her needs.

And she also doesn't demand it because she is so desperate, or like, I am so desperate to just have him, that I don't want to make too many demands in case he gets scared.

Okay, I got you.

I'm going little by little.

Okay, so what I think is this, I think that he obviously fancies Carrie in terms of he's physically, sexually attracted to her, probably enjoys having sex with her.

Best shag he ever had.

Best shag he ever had? Great. I mean, that's wonderful.

And I think he is probably thinking with his penis, and obviously enjoys Carrie's company as well, but doesn't enjoy it enough and isn't in love with her enough or besotted by her to the point where he's making a real commitment.

So I do think that he would like to go to the birthday party, yes. Who doesn't love a good birthday party would like to see her, yes.

But isn't thinking, oh, I've been invited to this birthday party, now I know that she really likes me, and now I'm going to fall back in love with her because of this gesture. I think that if anything, it kind of puts me or the Mr.

Big or whoever it is, kind of in the driving seat because he knows now that Carrie slash you is really into him. You don't really invite someone to your birthday unless you're quite into them. I know this because my birthday is coming up.

And who's making the guest list?

Wouldn't you like to know, my dear?

By the way, you would definitely have got the invite, but we're in different cities, so just FYI.

Does that mean that you really fancy me?

You know we're really good friends. We can't cross that professional boundary.

We can't cross that line.

While we're podcasting, at least. I think that it kind of, if anything, it puts him a little bit more in the driving seat. And if anything, I think it might slightly weaken Carrie's position.

Sorry to say that.

Okay. Do you think that there is something, because you were saying he's obviously thinking with his penis.

Do you think that by getting a man to, or manipulating a man through my sexual weapons, I can manage to get him to where I want him emotionally?

Oh, superb question. I think that you have to have sexual attraction to someone that you're going to end up with romantically. Otherwise, you're just going to end up being friends, or you'll break up and you won't be friends.

So it's a, you'll break up and you'll be friends, or you'll break up and you won't be friends. Those are the things.

So I do think that, yes, sometimes a way of getting back together, in terms of being in each other's physical presence, is through physical attraction. Whether that then turns into emotional attraction and lasting attraction is a lot more difficult.

And I think that if you don't put yourself in that position where you're physically with the person, you'll never know.

So I think it's okay to use sexual attraction, physical attraction to get someone to be more likely to be in your presence and be around you.

However, I think if a guy is just physically into you, but not emotionally into you, it's hard to make that conversion just because they're physically into you. I don't think...

What do you think are some of the telltale signs? Because I know many women that will put themselves in a position where they continue to invest physically, which sometimes also means emotionally with a man.

Because, oh, but you know, like maybe if I waited out a bit longer, he'll realize what he's got or what he's about to miss, and he'll choose me. And at the end of the day, as a woman, you end up getting more and more emotionally attached to this man.

And this man might think like, oh, not to be horrendous, but like, why would I buy the cow if I can get the milk for free?

That's such a good expression. Why have I never heard that? Why is someone whose English is the second language teaching me a great expression in English?

Welcome to the dating universe.

After that so many times.

That's so good. I genuinely think that guys, and this is nothing new, are much more able to separate physical slash sexual attraction from emotional attraction. And I think with girls, it's a lot harder to separate these two things.

Once girls start having sex with a man, the emotional attachment is kind of hard to stop. Whereas I think with a guy, and I think it's probably all evolutionary, we can detach ourselves from it.

So I think girls who, let's say, are thinking, is this guy just physically slash sexually attracted to me versus could there be an emotional attraction? Like I said, you're never going to know unless you try.

But I think if you are having sex for a long time, like six months, and there's no commitment there, I think you've got your answer.

Okay. All right. I like that.

Off to episode three, The Freak Show. I'm kind of like, yeah, this is all about kind of like all the monsters that are out there in the dating apps or dating pool.

Dating apps and Sex and the City?

No.

Was it predating apps?

Predating apps. This is like 1999, 2000.

Maybe they had like OkCupid, like maybe just the website.

Yeah, but it's still very kind of like frowned upon. If you're on that, you're like, Oh my God, what is wrong with you?

Unlike everyone now who's definitely not a massive loser.

Anyway, they have the equivalent of like going out on blind dates or like getting set up. Like they're talking about all the different, like how the men are horrible.

And I think I am going around trying to date some people and I keep finding men that I'm like, Oh my God, the bar is so low. There's no eligible men out there. And like, I'm trying to get over Mr.

Big by meeting other guys. And I eventually find this guy who seems normal. We meet at Central Park and we agree to go on a non-date because he agrees with me.

It's grim out there. And long story short.

You agree to go on a non-date?

Yes.

Okay, just like a platonic meeting.

Yeah, it's kind of cute because they're like, Yeah, dating sucks, dating sucks. Well, maybe, you know, do you want to go on a non-date? And of course, they end up shagging.

And Carrie is so traumatized by how many bad dates she's been on and how much men have hurt her. She's having a sleepover at his. He leaves to play soccer or football, whatever.

And I go everywhere to try and find what is wrong with him. I start looking in his fridge, his contact book, his closet, everything until I find a box that is locked. And I'm like, there it is.

This is what's wrong with him. He's hiding it. Maybe it's child porn.

Who knows? And there's this scene where I'm smoking a cigarette, trying to break into the box. And the dude comes back being like, what the fuck are you doing?

I decided that I'd rather spend time with you than go play soccer. What is up with you? And I'm caught red handed.

I'm like, I'm so sorry. I was looking for the wrong thing with you. What?

I am coming to you. I'm like, I'm mortified. What do you think?

Do you think he hates me forever?

I'm trying to think. If I came back and someone was, well, I'd be definitely feeling a bit like my privacy was invaded if someone had gone through all of my stuff. So I'd be like, this person is a bit of a psycho.

And why can't they just take a bit more time to get to know me to find out all of the things that are wrong about me? You know, so I think going through everyone's stuff is really, it's dramatized.

But if someone had done that to my apartment, I'd come back, I'd probably be furious. And I think it was really weird.

How much room do you make for a psycho before you say like, oh, no, not again?

Oh my gosh, well, I think as soon as you work out that they are actually a psycho, I don't think there's much room that you can give them. But I think it usually is a bit of a sort of, they drip feed you, that's psycho.

So you got to find out slowly but surely, and then eventually you're like, and it can be a lot of gaslighting as well. So you can be like, is this them, is this me?

And then once you're like, okay, this person is an actual psycho, then yeah, I think it's pretty quick. And I've only ever gone out with one psycho.

I know people always say, oh, they're, you know, people, guys always say that ex-girlfriends are psychos. No, only one of my ex-girlfriends was an actual psycho.

Okay. I can't wait to have her on the podcast and hear her side of the story. Okay.

Next episode, it's called They Shoot Single People, Don't They? And in this episode, I am excited as hell because I am doing a photo shoot that is all about being single and fabulous. And they're going to do a feature on me as a sex columnist.

Is that what she is?

She's a sex columnist?

Yes.

Brilliant.

I'm so excited. But the night before the shoot, I'm going out with all my other three girlfriends because we're all single and we're having the best time and I get home and it's kind of late.

I was like, okay, I need to be at the shoot location at nine in the morning. It's five in the morning. I'm going to have to stay up so that it doesn't look like I've been up all night.

So she falls asleep or I fall asleep. I miss the time to go to the shoot. I'm so late.

I look so hangover and they start taking pictures of me. And I think they're test pictures and they're not. And suddenly the cover of the magazine is single and fabulous question mark.

So my first question to you is, do you think that there's anything pathetic about women that are maybe in their late thirties, early forties that are going out, having fun and not prioritizing finding a man?

And not prioritizing finding a man is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think that's fantastic. I think people should be able to do that and feel fine doing that at any age.

I agree.

And I also think people most likely to find other people are people just going out and living their lives the way that they would ordinarily and not deeply searching.

I'm not saying people shouldn't, if they want to, be on apps or put themselves in positions where they could meet people.

But I think if that is your primary goal each and every day and you're constantly thinking about it, I don't think that's healthy.

I think if you go out with your friends and you have fun, you're probably a more likeable person and people will see that. And I think it's fantastic at any age, not just late 30s, early 40s, 50s, 60s, whatever age you are.

So this is a bit the crux of the matter.

70s, 80s, 90s, I want to include everyone. Hundreds, however old you are.

Everyone. But this is a bit the crux of the matter on this episode because I end up going out on a Tuesday meeting Bradley Cooper, who in 2000 was looking, let me tell you, very, very good. And I almost go home with him.

Oh, nice.

Because I want to make myself feel better after feeling like I'm a pariah because I'm on the cover of this magazine.

Looking horrendous. Single and fabulous, question mark. And all of my girlfriends are kind of also entertaining men that are probably not their first choice because everybody's like, oh, maybe we're not that fabulous.

Maybe we should just settle. And we see a lot of faking intimacy just to be coupled up. What do you think about that?

Well, I don't like the idea of faking intimacy, that's for sure.

I think that for me, if I'm not all in, if I don't feel like I want to go all in, then it's kind of all or nothing. And look, I understand people's priorities in life. Some people's priorities might be like, okay, I really want to have kids.

And that might be number one. That might be before finding the 100% perfect guy for you. And maybe you find a guy who is 80% of what you're looking for, but your priority is to have kids.

And you're like, this is how old I am, this is what I want to do, this is a great person to do it with.

I have no judgment against that because you got your priorities and your priority or number one priority is to have kids, and you found someone you want to do it with. Okay, is it your dream person that has every single box ticked?

No, it's not, but no one's perfect anyway. And I have no judgment against that. However, for me, I would prefer to find the ideal person for me and then have kids with that person.

So that's kind of like my priority. Well, my actual kind of like hierarchy is fulfillment, enjoyment, happiness comes number one. And if that means being single, then do that.

If that means being with someone else, then do that. But if it leads to fulfillment, enjoyment, happiness, then you have to follow your heart on that, right?

So if you're living your life, you're fulfilled, you're happy, and you're enjoying it, and you're single, great. But if someone comes into your life where actually that increases being with that person, then there's your answer.

You know, it's very simple. Then be with that person. That's great.

And then it goes, you know, okay, if you really like that person, do you want to like have a family with them? Would that bring more fulfillment, happiness, and enjoyment? I think probably in the long term for me, yes, it would.

I'm sure I've seen my sister have kids. It's a lot of work. And I'm sure it's frustrating at times, but I think fulfillment and enjoyment, happiness.

Make sure you do it with the right partner.

Yeah.

Yeah. And she has an amazing husband, and they're a great family. And so yeah, and I think it's fine, however you do it, as long as it's kind of aligned with the way your priorities and your values in life.

Amazing.

Okay. I love that answer.

20:59

Bigʼs Commitment Issues

Then episode five, Four Women and a Funeral. I unfortunately know a fashion designer, he passes away, I go to his funeral, and death makes me think about Mr. Big.

And I think life's so short, and coming to what just said, he is the one that makes me feel fulfilled alive and, you know, goosebumps. So I call him and I ask him out for dinner.

There is this fear in me about asking him for dinner and when we're out, he kind of like starts making a move, and I freak out and I leave running. And then I eventually go back, and I try to have a conversation with him. Are we back together?

And he doesn't give me a full answer. But we're back together.

What do you think as a man, if you cannot say, okay, let's do it, let's give it another try, if you don't fully spell out, like I'm going to give you everything that you wanted, that I didn't give you the first time around, but you're there and

you're like, okay, whatever you say. Do you think that is a cop out?

Yeah, I do. I don't think he likes as much as she likes him. And I think if he were madly in love with her, he would say it and wouldn't dangle that carrot in front of her, which seems like he's been doing a lot.

Am I wrong in the series? He's dangling this carrot and he doesn't fully commit?

He's just a complicated man because he's very unavailable. He's gone through a divorce. He says he never wants to get married again.

Right.

But that doesn't mean he can't fully commit to someone, right? Just means he doesn't sign a contract.

So as of now, he's like, okay, whatever you say.

Whatever you say.

It's actually he says, if you say so.

If you say so, that would infuriate me.

Yeah. He's taken me out on lovely dates. We've gone out for romantic dinners.

We've gone dancing.

So what if the guy really loves you? He'll tell you he loves you. He'll tell you he's going to commit to you.

And he'll tell you all these things, you know. And if he doesn't, it means that he doesn't love you or he's just a complete weirdo freak and he's hiding it from you. And I don't know why you do that.

So no, I think that you can have romantic dinners. You can have romantic times. But again, he might just really enjoy the sex with Carrie.

He might just... That might be something that Phil's like a void in his life. But if he can't verbalize the love that he has for Carrie, then he doesn't have love for her.

Like true, full love for her.

As the Carrie that I am channeling, I'd be like, okay, thank you so much for your advice, but like I really want to give it another shot. So we go on to the next episode, The Cheating Curve. So I am just so happy to have this man back in my life.

I think I've learned my lesson from the previous time around. I am taking things a bit more slowly. So I'm hiding from my friends that I'm seeing him again.

Until we have to go to the movies, the four of us girls, and my diaphragm is stuck in my cervix. So somebody needs to come out and get it out of me.

Oh, okay. When you said diaphragm, I thought you were talking about your diaphragm just below your lungs. No, no.

Okay, okay.

It needs to take the diaphragm out of your cervix, okay?

Yeah.

And Samantha, who is a trooper, comes in. What do you think about maybe somebody giving another opportunity to a guy that her girlfriends know has wronged her, and she hides it for a little bit until she feels comfortable?

Do you think that that is kind of healthy boundaries? Let me figure out something that I really want to give another shot before I get you in my ear? Or do you think that that is a telltale sign that this is maybe not the best idea?

I think the latter, yeah.

She's obviously hiding it because she doesn't want her friends to know because she doesn't want the judgment from her friends to be like, oh my god, why have you let this guy back into your life who was a dick to you basically?

And I think that that's a huge red flag.

I haven't really heard many stories of guys who didn't treat girls very well, and then the relationship ended and then the girl letting the guy back in, and everything is just better and hunky dory and everyone loves each other and nothing else bad

ever happened again. I don't think I've ever heard anything like that.

I think that unfortunately, patterns are a pattern for a reason, and if someone treats you pretty badly the first time around, they'll probably resort back to their actual character, which will be like that the second time around.

Yeah, okay, so I'll give you another dating epic one-liner, don't fall in love with potential, people don't change.

Yeah, it's true. Look, I don't want to rule out everyone because there are examples where people do get therapy and become better people. Like, that's true.

But I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

And I really do think that the longer you go out with someone, the more you can see their true colors and eventually the façade that people kind of put up at the beginning when they're trying to get the person to like them and trying to make it work

if they really like them. That eventually goes away. You can't fake everything all the time. And you eventually work out who the real person is.

And then stuff can go sideways and you can break up. But you might romanticize the beginning bit like, oh my god, but they were so amazing. But that was at the beginning when they were trying really hard and trying to impress you.

You cannot maintain that the whole time. If however, you really like the person from the beginning, they were awesome the whole time and they continue to be awesome, then that's just the person. That's just who they are.

And I think it's, I just had a friend, poor girl. She sadly just got divorced. I mean, not sadly got divorced because it's good that she was breaking up with this guy.

But this guy was such a charmer at the beginning and they lived together for a year. And he managed to keep up this facade for a year. Then they got married and it became very apparent that he was actually a completely different person.

And three years into the marriage, she's getting a divorce. And it's just shocking to me sometimes that people can keep up that facade for so long, but you cannot keep it up forever.

And eventually that wall will come down, you'll see the person for who they are. And I don't think it's very difficult to change from the person that you actually are.

Okay. Interesting because on to the next episode, The Chicken Dance. This is the first time that I get invited to a wedding and both my name and Mr.

Big's are on the invite. So I'm super excited. The bride asks me to write a little...

You're broken up at this point or you're together?

No, no, no.

I came clear to my girlfriends. I'm with him. This time is different.

Give me some room. So there's a wedding. I get invited to the wedding with my plus one and he has his own name.

It's not Carrie plus one. It's Carrie and Mr. Big.

And I am asked to write and read a poem during the ceremony because I'm an excellent writer, as you know, for my sub stack.

I did actually meet some of you at sub stack, but we've discussed this. You are a writer.

Anyway, so I go up to read my little poem and he takes a call in the middle of my poem. And that really hurts my feelings. And then I go and I try to make it better and unsavage the entire evening.

I was like, will you dance with me? And he says, I don't really like to dance. And then I go over to him because he's left, he's on the phone.

I'm like, dude, you walked out in the middle of my poem, like I want somebody who will stay with me. And she catches herself because I think she wants to say, I want somebody who will stay with me all my life.

And she says, until the end of a wedding. And that's when they announce that they're going to throw the bouquet so the wedding's over. So they leave.

No, they kind of like, when they throw it, the four girlfriends turn around and are like, fuck this shit.

Okay.

So what do you think about that? Do you think that as a man, sometimes you can be so driven by your own work that like, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize this was important to you, and maybe it's not that big of a faux pas.

Or do you think that that is really, again, a telltale sign that he's never going to make room for you in this relationship?

I mean, unless that was like a medical emergency that he was dealing with on the phone, I don't think there's any excuse to get up and take a call during your partner's moment at a wedding. No, absolutely no excuse.

And also, there wasn't an excuse for him to say no to dancing as well. You know, there wasn't a phone call he had to take for that. He just said he didn't like it.

And I'm like, sometimes you got to do stuff you don't like for people you like. So, no, I think that he's... I'm like frustrated by him right now.

And I'm also frustrated by her, like dump him, you know. But I see this all the time. You and I see this all the time.

This is classic. This is probably why everyone loved this show. Because it's like, this is me.

This is me. I've been treated so badly, but I still love the person. Like, it's just like, you can see it happening.

You can see the car crash, impending car crash, and you can't look away. It's so entertaining. And you see yourself in it, whether being on the receiving end of it or being the perpetrator.

And it's just so, oh my God, you just want to wring her neck and be like, dump him. And Mr. Big's not being such a big dick.

The thing is that I will say, I've worked many years in therapy for my therapist to teach me to voice and enunciate very well what it is that I want.

Because sometimes I'll be like, Tom, my birthday next week. But in between the lines, I'm like, throw me a surprise birthday party and get me a very expensive gift. And because you don't do exactly that, I will give you an attitude for a month.

But I didn't voice exactly what I wanted. So how are you supposed to be out for the job? And my problem with Carrie is that she compromises her truth because she's scared of losing him.

And that's why she doesn't say, I want to be with somebody that will stay with me till the end, period, not till the end of a wedding. How much do you think that it can be my fault for her not voicing my needs?

Sure. It can definitely be your fault because I think honesty is always the best policy. And if she is cutting sentences short or meanings of sentences short, then that is on her.

And I know that she's doing it because she thinks that she doesn't want to scare him away by being too much too soon.

But you know what, if you're always pretending to be someone else, then that person is liking a version of you that you're pretending to be, not the actual version of you. And they'll either like you or they won't like you, right? And you are you.

You can't change that much. You can change a bit to be a better person, I think, but ultimately you're you. If they don't like you, well, that's on them.

If you're a good person, that is, you know, that's on them. And like they can find someone else and you'll find someone better for you.

But if you constantly compromise and constantly change yourself just to fit in their box, that's never going to work.

And so, yeah, she is to blame, not completely, obviously, but if she's not voicing what she wants, like if she's saying, I just want to be with someone until the end of the wedding when she really means forever, then yeah, that's her fault.

And I think it's all about confidence.

And if you feel comfortable in your own skin and you feel good about yourself and if you feel okay with if this person doesn't like me, then that's their choice and I like me and I'll find someone better, you know, I think you need to be in that

position. Easier said than done, I know, but especially when you love someone, but ultimately it's never going to work unless you are completely authentic.

Okay, you're going to hate the next episode, but again, I just want to...

It's going to be frustrating. Let's go.

So next episode, it's called The Man, The Myth, The Viagra. And in this episode... It's good.

Yeah. My friends are saying it is indeed different this time around. The myth of you cannot change a man has been broken by me.

I managed to break in Mr. Big. He's been a wonderful boyfriend.

We hang out all the time. He is very cute with me. He takes me everywhere.

He cooks for me. And some of my friends are a bit... What's the word?

Reticent? Like they don't believe it.

Yeah.

And she's like, you know what? I'm going to organize a dinner for you guys to get to know him better because he is indeed making me very happy. And I would love for all of you to spend time together.

Okay.

So, we set up a time, Saturday, whatever, 730, hot new restaurant in town because, you know, I'm a sex columnist, but it's also kind of like an it girl, so I can make it happen.

I go to pick him up and he is in his pajamas. He's like, honestly, do I need to come? It's you and your friends.

You'll have a better time if I don't go. It's raining. I'm exhausted.

And again, I believe that if I really say what I'm feeling, I'll burst into tears. So I'm like, you know what? Fine.

But as a good man, you know when women say everything's fine and you really know that nothing's fine? He knows it's not fine. So I show up to the restaurant.

My friends are there and they're like, where's Mr. Big? And I don't have the heart to tell them he's not coming.

I was like, oh, he was coming from work. He might be a bit late. It's okay.

And right when I'm about to say he's not coming, he shows up.

And I have been in that kind of relationship, me, Isabel, where it's such a roller coaster that when he comes and saves the game last minute, it makes me fall double as hard as if he just came with me, ready from the get-go.

What do you think about that as a guy? Do you think this guy is just really given the bare minimum, or he actually was correct in himself? And he was like, you know what?

What the fuck am I doing? This was important to her. I'm going to go.

Well, I think if he thought about that from the beginning, he would have obviously gone.

I think it looks like bare minimum. He might have been like, okay, if I don't do this, she's probably going to dump me, or if he's more difficult. I don't think that that shows obviously more effort than not going at all.

But I think it's almost like a bare minimum. Like, let me just try and save it, you know?

And look, I understand from her perspective, it's enticing, right, when someone is, you're not sure they're into you or they're not into you, or if the relationship is going to go somewhere or it's not.

It's kind of exciting because you get these little dopamine hits when you're like, okay, everything's going to be okay. And that's what she's getting right there, which when he turns up, it's like, oh my God, thank God he turned up.

And you get that dopamine rush and you're like, everything's going to be okay. And the stress that you had from him not turning up and so on, just all dissipates. And it's like the medicine to the illness that you had.

And you're like, thank goodness for that. But that's so tumultuous and so unhealthy and so not something that is going to last. It's unsustainable is what it is.

I have to say, it's also that I, as much as I have always made excuses for things, I have learned to really appreciate consistency.

And I think it's key if you are a woman and you want a consistent man that will show up for you consistently. This is a proof that maybe that's not it.

Yeah. Consistency is very attractive. Some people think that consistency in showing up shows desperation, but I completely disagree.

It just shows that you're a good person. I think flakiness has become in some places the norm, which is really bad. I think that dazing apps definitely contribute to that because I think that people think that they owe people less.

They haven't met them before and I get it. If you haven't met someone, it's like you don't know them anything.

But if you've agreed to meet up with someone and then you either just don't show up or you change plans for an illegitimate reason, it's just not good form. Flaking is flaking regardless of how you know the person.

And I just think that people have become pretty bad like that. And it might be because there are so many more options. Not that that's a good reason.

I'm just saying like a potential reason that people do it. Not that it's not an excuse. But yeah, I just think that consistency is very attractive.

And ultimately for a relationship that's going to last, that's what you have to have. If you don't have consistency.

Especially in your 30s, I don't have time for flakiness.

No. Time is all you've got. You can't get that back.

And if you waste it on showing up somewhere and someone doesn't show up or planning something and someone bails last minute, it's time wasted that you'd never get back and you're like, well, screw that.

Let's actually just hang out with people that don't bail. All my friends, none of them are flaked. If they're a flake, they're not my friends.

There's no point. It's not good for my life. I don't want someone like that in my life.

It wastes my time. It's not going to make me happy. Again, happiness, fulfilment, enjoyment, that's the top thing for me.

And it's not contributing to that. Romantic or platonic relationships.

Yeah. Okay. I like that.

Okay. This one's an easy one.

Let's go.

We are still dating. I have proved that we are no longer a myth. We are a happy couple and I will scream it to the top of my lungs.

Wow.

And so we continue to date.

We continue to go out. We look so great together. I enjoy my time so much but I start noticing that he checks out other women in my presence.

Okay.

You're my guy friend.

Do you think that the fact that he does it in front of me means there's nothing to it? It really bothers me. Do you think that he's actually going to cheat on me?

That is real desire.

I don't think that looking at attractive people in front of or not in front of your partner is necessarily a bad thing. I think we can all appreciate beauty.

But there's that expression that I'm sure you know, just because you're on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu, right? Looking at attractive people, like, I'm okay if I'm going out with a girl and she's looking at good-looking guys.

It's okay. It's whether you act upon things. And that's different.

And you can't judge unless someone does that, I don't think.

Do you think that there's a fine line between me just building on something that obviously has red flags and it's crumbling on a few things? Or do you think that it's me being insecure? The fact that it bothers me so much.

Yeah.

No, I think that if there are other red flags that are present, then that might make one think twice about their partner, in this case, Mr. Big, looking at other attractive women.

If there are no red flags, obviously, I think it's just like, look, he's just appreciating beauty. You can appreciate objective beauty. You can even appreciate subjective beauty.

But yeah, I think that him having a lot of red flags probably adds to her insecurity about it.

Yeah. Okay.

40:14

Intimacy Fears

Next episode, The Cast System. I am so besotted with him. He came to pick me up to take me to a party.

He gave me a gift that I really don't like, but I blurted out, I love you, and he left me unread. Do you think that there's a specific protocol on how much time it needs to pass before he says, I love you back?

Should I have waited for him to say it first? What do you think?

She texted, I love you, right?

No, no. I mean, left unread, like as in he looked at me, and I think he either said, thank you, or said like, I'll wait for you there. Right.

So he didn't say it back.

In terms of who says, I love you first, I don't think it really matters. I think if you love the person, if you're comfortable saying it, just say it, you're already feeling it, right?

And I think that if you're completely sure that the person doesn't love you, certain, you might want to hold off on saying it for a little bit.

If you're unsure and you don't care what the answer is, because you just want to express your love for someone, obviously go for it.

But I think that telling someone that you love them because you feel that way, if they're the right person for you, I don't think it's going to scare them off. You're just basically expressing how you already feel, and you're just being honest.

And I think honesty is a very attractive trait. And so I don't think by and large you can completely ruin a relationship that was meant to be if you say I love you.

I think that plenty of times if you say I love you, and this just wasn't a relationship that wasn't working, it could be a catalyst for, okay, that's too much, and it might not go the right way. But it wouldn't have gone the right way anyway.

So I think that sometimes people say I love you, and then the relationship goes pear-shaped, and they blame themselves, oh, I shouldn't have said that.

But I don't think it would have made any difference to the ultimate conclusion of the relationship.

Yeah. I'm going to tell you how it plays out, because we have a fight at the party, and then he kind of like calls me, because he knows what's up, even though I am still not saying what really bothers me.

And he's like, listen, I know what this is about, what you said means a lot to me, and I need to take my own time. Maybe you need for me to give you a key to my home to know that I'm crazy about you, but I'm crazy about you, okay?

So I think he says he loves me. So I'm super happy. Do you think that that's okay?

Is he saying that he's crazy about her?

Yes.

No, no. He's told me he's crazy about me.

He gives her a key to her for his home.

Yeah.

And he says, I love you.

Yeah. Okay. Do you think, okay, like, this is what gets me really invested.

I'm like, I'm breaking him. He's finally said it. He loves me.

Where we're gonna make this. Like, it's so different from the first time around. Am I delulu?

Oh, you delulu.

I love that. This is so hard, because I... Is it...

The question I'm asking, does he really mean it? Like, when you're watching this, do you... As someone who's watching the show, do you believe what he's saying?

Yeah, a thousand percent.

So, as someone watching it, like, he is really saying, I love you, I want to be with you, carry the keys to my place.

He's just very walled up.

You can see that he's a man that probably feels very lonely. He has a lot of power in his job, which is a lonely position to be in. And he's gone through a divorce and he needs to be guarded.

And he takes his time.

And finally, his walls are broken down in this scene.

Little by little, whereas I decided, yeah, I decided moment one, I'm all in. With him, it's more like...

Then why would she believe otherwise?

Yeah, I don't know. I'm so happy.

Yeah, I think if he's saying that and he's never said, I love you before, right?

Yeah.

He's never said this the first time. So it's just taking him a while. And yeah, you know, this is...

If I were in her position, I'd probably feel the same way. Like we got there in the end and different people take different amounts of time to say, I love you and fall in love with people. And yeah, that's probably what I would feel.

OK, the next episode, The Evolution.

But I kind of feel...

Just wait for it.

So I am spending so much time at Mr. Big's that I am slowly but surely living a lot of stuff at his, my tampons, my hairdryer, my straightener. And suddenly he gives everything in a back to me.

He's like, by the way, you forgot all of this. And he says to me, I think that what we have is excellent when we want to be together, when we're together. But we all have our own place so that when we want to be alone, we're alone.

Do you think that that is someone that is so scared of intimacy that it's another red flag or do you think that's fair?

How long are they into the relationship?

Probably a few months now, maybe five, four, but it's the second time around.

Yeah, you should be in the honeymoon period right now. I want to spend every living second with this person. So yeah, afraid of intimacy or having second thoughts.

Yes.

Red flag.

Red flag. Next.

Then I find that he has a little picture of me hitting in his sock drawer.

Okay.

We give him a pass?

No. Actions speak louder than words. And I think that just because he has it, it's hidden in his sock drawer.

It's not like it's out on his mantelpiece.

No, that is even more special.

Is it? With your socks?

Yeah. No. Okay.

Agreed to disagree.

Then Buckle Up Buttercup, because now next episode, La Deleuze Skis, I go to a BDSM restaurant opening.

I go over to help him pack for his trip to Paris. And I find out he might be relocating temporarily to Paris. And he's like, I don't know how long, and I don't know.

And I lose my shit. I'm like, he's doing it again. We're getting close.

And he shuts me down because he's scared of what we're becoming. But like, I am so tired. I am so tired.

So Mr. Big is moving to Paris. He hasn't even told me about it until the day before he's traveling.

Because of his work. Do you think that that's fair because he doesn't know what's up? Or do you think that that is super fucked up?

When did he find out he was moving to Paris?

Oh, probably.

We don't know. But probably before. He knew before.

He should have told her way before.

Yeah, not the day before.

OK. So it's fucked up.

Unfair. F***ed up. Red flag.

OK, so we break up.

Good.

Next episode, Games People Play.

I start going to therapy because my friends can't stand me talking about the breakup.

Good.

And this episode is all about the games we play when dating. Women play hard to get. Some men play to be a bit of a dick.

Do you think that any relationship that starts off by playing so many games is bound to maybe not be the most healthy?

Yes.

Or do you fall for girls that play hard to get?

No. I may be used to it when I was younger, but not anymore. I just think that honestly is always the best policy.

You can kind of always work it out whether they're playing hard to get. I certainly don't play any games. I will just take it or leave it.

If you like this, great. If you don't, fine. And I just think, like I said before, you'll end up finding out who the real person is eventually.

And the whole playing the games thing, it's so nice to meet someone who's just like straight off the bat, honest about everything. Like I said, honestly is always the best policy.

Amazing. So don't play games. Okay, next episode, The Fuck Buddy.

Do you think that a fuck buddy relationship can be turned into a real relationship?

Oh my gosh. Not that I've of course ever had a fuck buddy, but if I had ever had a fuck buddy, I don't think it would have probably turned into relationship because they wouldn't be called a fuck buddy. They'd be called my girlfriend.

Yeah.

I also feel like when you're stuck in that dynamic with someone, it's very hard to pretend that you're intimate and you want to tell them everything. So my answer is no.

I'd say no.

Next episode, Short Cummings. I'm seeing this new guy who's super cool. He's also a writer and his family is super, super cool.

They're professors in NYU and documentaries and stuff, but he ejaculates prematurely. What do you think? He won't talk about it with me, but I love his family.

Should I stay with him?

Ejaculate prematurely every single time?

Every single time. And every time that I try to talk about it or take it even more slower and talk about it, he shuts down.

Okay. What's the question?

Do you think that I should dump him?

If he refuses to talk about it, yes. Premature ejaculation is something that could definitely be dealt with with a doctor. So, you know, if he refuses to even broach the topic, then you don't really have a choice.

But if you kind of a patient gets to know him a bit better and finally are able to talk about it and get the right help, then obviously not dump him. But if it's different, the premature ejaculation is not the issue.

The issue is him not talking about it or refusing to talk about it. And if you can't cross that bridge, then you've tried everything, you know, that you can.

But I would say be patient and have a chat and really try and get to the bottom of it and get him to seek professional medical help.

I mean, as a sex columnist, I think that that is just not good enough and sex is way too important. So, okay, we're dumping him.

It can be fixed.

Yeah. Okay. Tom is a doctor, so trust him.

Three more episodes to go. Next one. Was it good for you?

I have met this very, very cute guy who is a recovering alcoholic and I kind of pushed him to date me before he was out of his 12 months and like however many steps.

We have sex, it's epic, and I caused for him to relapse because he kind of came on too strong and after we had sex for a few times he said, I love you.

Do you think that he's mental and do you think we jumped the gun too quickly and he is still an addict?

Wait, why did he start drinking again?

So basically we go out on a date and he's just like, Carrie, you're amazing, sex with you is amazing, I have never had sex over before and this is just blowing my mind. I love you, I love you.

And she's like, I think you're looking at me kind of like a drink because he talks about the fact that if he opens a bottle of Pringles, he can finish, like he cannot just have one or two. He needs to finish it.

It's like, I think you're kind of putting on me a lot of things that are not on me. Let's take a break.

Next thing you know, after that conversation, he gets rudely awakened at like three in the morning and he's naked and drunk, being like, you're the best shag I ever had. You broke my hard carry.

OK, he does seem like he has an addictive personality, should we say? And it seems like maybe he, instead of using alcohol to fulfill that addictive personality, he maybe was turning to sex with Carrie and maybe also emotional attachment.

So he does seem like perhaps maybe a little bit afflicted with that. So yeah, as a doctor, I'm like a little bit hesitant to call just someone crazy.

But yeah, I think he does show obviously signs of addiction and that can be difficult in relationships.

How important do you think is to respect the process, even if it's just one month out of 12 that we're not respecting in order for you to date? Because they say you shouldn't date anybody until you've done 12 months of the program.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, are you asking me if it's for Carrie to respect that or for him to respect that or both?

Both, because Carrie pushes him a little bit.

Look, I don't know about the 12 step program and much about it, but obviously, it will have been researched very well.

And if there's a process in place and that increases the likelihood of you dealing with your addiction, then yeah, you should respect that as someone going through it, as the individual.

And as someone who is either friends with them or potential lovers with them, you should respect that too.

Okay. Now, I'm going to mesh the last two episodes into one because this is heartbreaking.

No.

Yes.

Can I guess what happens?

No.

Okay. Go.

Okay. What's your guess?

I just guess Mr. Big comes back onto the scene, they get back together, and then he breaks her heart.

No.

Okay.

So, in the next episode, I go to the Hamptons with my girlfriends and I run into Mr. Big at a party in the Hamptons. And I'm like, is it a vision or is it really you?

And he's there with a much younger woman. And he tells me we met in Paris and like we're here at her parents' house. And I'm just like, what the fuck?

The guy that I'm still not over is here with a fucking 20-something year old. I feel like shit. Then in the next episode, we go out for lunch because I decide like, listen, if you're going to be back in New York, I love you.

Let's go for lunch. Let's try and be friends. Tell me about the go.

And he starts talking about it and she's like, you know what? I'm not ready. Let's make a pact that unless something's really serious, we don't bring it up.

And he says, Carrie, it's serious. We're engaged.

Oh my gosh. Okay, okay.

So then I get invited to the engagement party and I kind of don't go, but I catch it at the end and I see him and I approach him and I say, I have to ask you, why wasn't it me?

Because you were always supposed to have commitment issues, but you obviously don't have it with her. Why wasn't it me? What would you tell me if I were in her shoes?

And I was like, this is so hard. He didn't have commitment issues. It was just he wasn't into me.

So what would I tell you in terms of if I were telling you the truth of the matter or to make you feel better?

Be a friend to me.

Both.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I always think honestly is the best policy.

So I'll be like, this really sucks. But yeah, he, you know, there's that movie. He's just not that into you.

Or she's just not that into you. I forget which way.

He's not that into you.

He's not that into you. Yeah. That's it, right?

I think a lot of people say, oh, I'm not ready or I'm not looking for anything serious or I'm not dating right now or whatever it is.

But if they meet someone that they truly fall in love with, that they cannot live without, then all of that stuff is meaningless. They will want to go out with that person.

They will want to get engaged, married, live the rest of their life with that person, make babies with that person, all of those things. And if it's not that feeling, then you can say all of those things.

Because I think that people don't like hearing, I'm just not that into you or I'm not ready to date, or I don't want to date you. I'm physically attracted to you. I want to have sex with you.

You're really fun. But I don't want to be with you. I think it's pretty obvious that that's the case here.

And I would obviously... It sucks to hear that. But I think sometimes even as friends, you have to tell people the truth.

Even if it's a hard truth, a hard pill to swallow.

He does say something like, it was just so hard. And I think that's even less kind. Because I'm like, oh, maybe I could have made it easier.

Hard like the relationship was hard?

Yes.

Maybe that's unkind.

I don't know.

It is unkind because it kind of like leaves a door open being like, it could have been you. But like, you're obviously too much. And like, now I have a 20 something year old that I can boss around.

So things are on my terms.

Ultimately, I think the outcome is the most important thing. And whatever he says on top of that doesn't really matter. Because it's like, you're either together or you're not.

And focus on that. And looking back and being like, oh, it was really hard. I could have made things easier.

That's not gonna help your life. It's not gonna help the present. It's not gonna help the future.

I think it doesn't bear thinking about. And the outcome is the important thing. They're not together.

It wasn't meant to be. And as hard as it is to receive the info, like chin up and move on, like that is literally what you have to do in this case, or the advice to do that. And you can mourn the loss, of course.

All breakups are, most breakups are sad. For one, if not both people. And I think as friends, you got to be there for them, but you also got to tell them the cold, hard truth.

Damn, dude.

I think I would have blocked you.

I think maybe girls and guys speak to each other differently.

All right. Well, that's season two, Tom.

Oh, my gosh.

Thank you.

Well, Wind, I feel like I've gone through some emotional roller coaster.

Totally.

More like an emotional washing machine. It was intense.

Yeah, which I think is what keeps us hooked as women is you're invested.

Yeah, like the ups and downs.

Okay. So thank you so much. Where can people find you?

They can find me at my podcast.

You can find it on Instagram. It's at Rejection Rehab.

It's on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube. Every single social media platform known to man. Just look for Rejection Rehab and you can watch none other than Isabel Envy on it in a great episode.

So please do tune in.

I did do a cameo.

She did. Not a cameo. She was the main actor in it.

So please follow, like, subscribe. You'll get more of this. If you like this, you'll get more of this.

And if you didn't like this, well.

Thank you so much, Tom. It's been a pleasure. We'll see you soon.

The pleasure was mine.

Thank you so much, Isabel.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of On Just Like That We Found Therapy. All things related to today's guest are in the show notes. Please do not forget to rate me five stars.

Follow me on social media at We Found Therapy Pod and subscribe to this podcast if you haven't done so already. I'll see you on our next therapy session. I love you all.

Bye.