Power, Money & Why Carrie Invented a Rule That Was Purely Convenient — S2E10 with Dr. Nicole Nasr, Therapist

About This Episode

In Season 2 episode ten of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV welcomes back therapist and Journey founder Dr. Nicole Nasr to unpack Sex and the City's "The Caste System." It's the episode where Carrie finally says I love you and gets "you're welcome" back, Miranda buys Steve a suit that costs more than his monthly rent and he walks out, Charlotte goes full groupie for a celebrity before snapping herself out of it, and Samantha simply leaves a man who can't show basic respect.

What We Cover

• Saying I love you first: the vulnerability of going first and what it means when it's not said back

• Deadlines for I love you — why giving someone a week to say it back is both understandable and completely unhelpful

• Miranda buying Steve a suit: who was it really for, and why did it make him feel so bad?

• Socioeconomic differences in relationships — can they work, and what does it actually take?

• Steve walking out: was it brave or did he make a decision that wasn't his to make alone?

• Carrie cheating with Jeremiah and inventing the "whatever happened before I love you doesn't count" rule

• Charlotte going full groupie: what her submission to a celebrity reveals about a part of herself she suppresses

• How to give voice to a rebellious side without letting it become self-destructive

• Samantha simply leaving when disrespected: why that is a deeply spiritual response — and why most of us would do the opposite

• Why children of convenience and rules of convenience are both equally unreliable

About Our Guest

Dr. Nicole Nasr is a therapist and founder of Journey — an online private members club for therapists and accredited coaches across 19 cities, offering community, business growth support, workshops and connection. She knows every member personally and works to match clients with the right practitioner. If you're a therapist looking to grow your practice, or someone looking for the right therapist, reach out to Nicole directly. Find Journey and her socials in the show notes.

Transcript

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I have with me today Nicole Nasr, who's another repeat guest. She is a therapist and CEO and founder of Journey.

That is an excellent network of therapists that also does workshops and provides them with like a space for them to find clients. A lot of people from Journey have come on. Welcome back, Nicole.

How are you?

I'm good, and you?

Very good. Today, we are here to discuss Season 2, Episode 10 of Sex and the City, The Caste System, which is a problematic episode in itself.

But basically, the theme of this episode is how there are different ranks of people is within relationships, who's more in love and who's not, who has more money and who doesn't, servants, celebrities, and stuff like that.

Do you feel like there's a lot of power play when it comes to romantic relationships?

Yes, unfortunately. And it's very interesting because I was watching the episode this morning with one of my really good friends.

Yeah.

And she just paused like that. And she's like, I could never, I would never date someone that is not from the same background. And I was like, why?

She said, well, it's just like they're not from the same background. Like, she wouldn't give me more. And I'm like, what does that mean?

Like, give me more. And obviously, I have to dig deep. Like, it's my job.

So I was like, tell me more. What do you mean by this?

And then I could tell that, yeah, like she was talking, because a lot of the things that she gave as an example, like, you know, activities that we like doing, having been to the same kind of places, you know, you bond over these elements.

And I was like, yeah, but all of that can be also learned, right? Like you can get to know someone and really go into their world and vice versa. But it's a lot of work to put a lot of these things on the side.

Then we ended with the conclusion that actually you would have to love the person so, so much in order or really be into them in order to work around these things.

Because the way I see them, they're just small and in a way obstacles for you to be able to develop a relationship and a really good base with this person.

And when you like them enough, especially at the beginning, these stories where it's just in a way love at first sight, this intense connection and all that, it doesn't happen as often as we would like to.

And one of the ways that this episode explores that difference in level of power or circumstances is, we get introduced, I think Carrie's talking about how much she loves New York, and she's going out with Mr.

Big and she says, she's talking about the fact that she feels that she is in love with him. And she was like, there was the first time that I felt it, the first time that I felt like saying it. And then, like, I love this relationship.

As much as I want to find all what's problematic with Mr. Big, I love this relationship. And then there's a time that he is coming to pick her up to take her to a Park Avenue party.

And he gives her a gift that is so not her, that it's like this clutch, that it's a swan or something, that I actually find hilarious because in the spin-off And Just Like That, Sarah Jessica Parker is wearing a clutch that is a pigeon.

But she gets the purse and she looks at him and she says, I love you. And he gets really uncomfortable and says, All right, you're welcome. We got to go.

So my first question is, because I know you also personally, and I love the fact that you handle, I love the way that you handle yourself with your friends, with men, I know that you're married, but like the way that we've talked about things, do you

Yeah, I love this moment because when you say, I love you, and if we talk in the scene, it was really out of nowhere, right?

And I think that's an element that people have to be ready, that if you're going to just spare it for the first time, and it's a little bit out of nowhere, it's not that you, I don't know, you were somewhere and you were really having a moment, an

incredible connection, both of you, not just one of you, both of you at the same time. It's safer, right? It's safer to say it, it's safer to feel it, because it's a very vulnerable moment, right?

And the first one that is going to jump out, like someone has to be courageous here, but there's like a playground in which you can play that can feel very safe and other ones that doesn't.

Hers was just so out of the blue, they're going out for dinner, he gave her a gift, she didn't say anything about the gift, because also it could have been like, thank you so much, it's really sweet, you do a lot of things like that, that are out of

the blue and that makes me feel that, like there could have been an introduction to that, right? But there wasn't, it was just, you see it, and then, I love you.

So, obviously for someone maybe that was not there, and then obviously we know at the end of, can I mention the end of the episode?

Yeah.

At the end of the episode. I miss something that everybody saw it. But at the end of the episode, he calls her, and he tells her, it's a very triggering word for me.

It's a very triggering thing, right? So, so...

I mean, yeah, I think that's a harder conversation to have than just to say like, I love you, I love you back, just to avoid the hard conversation.

It is interesting that she decides to say it because I see her face and she looks at the clutch and she obviously hates it. But I find it hilarious, it's like, oh, what do I say to this? I love you.

But then we switch on to the girls at brunch and Carrie saying like, I said, I love you. And he said, you're welcome. And they're like, okay, what are you going to do?

And she's basically, well, I guess this is more or less like a dairy product in the fridge. I have to like break up with him if he doesn't say it within a week. What do you think about that rule of thumb?

I think it's stupid.

I generally believe it's so stupid because, well, again, not saying I love you back can mean so many different things.

Yeah.

And it's not black and white like that. It's not, okay, I'll give him a deadline. He doesn't say it back.

Okay, it means that this is going nowhere.

Yeah.

It's quite the opposite. Some people might tell you I love you after two, three days, and it might not mean anything. And some people might not tell you, but their actions and their...

So, for me, anytime I have clients that are coming with like... It comes always from a place of insecurity because as if hearing it back is guaranteed, it doesn't mean anything.

Obviously, it feels good and it feels nice and it feels safe, but also there are other ways of feeling safe. Do you still feel safe when you are with this person? Do you feel seen?

Do you feel respected? Or do they make efforts in other places? What's their love language?

If the answers are quite positive in this, then give this person their own time.

Yeah, I agree, but it's so hard, because I feel like on his shoes, I always try so hard to reassure the person that I'm with. I never want to hurt their feelings. Yes.

And I guess sometimes that comes to my detriment.

But besides that, I think the next scene is like Miranda going out with Steve, and they start framing their relationship to showcase the difference in background and the difference in financial power that they have.

And they're going out for pizza, and Miranda says, I have this event at my company. I would love for you to be my date. Do you have a suit?

And we basically then go to Steve's apartment that looks horrendous, and Miranda sees this gold corduroy suit, and she's like, We need to get you a suit.

And I really want to talk to you about this, because it was so sad to want Steve, because I think Steve is such a good guy. And he's trying all those things on, and I think the suit is $1,800, and then the shoes might be another $600.

And he's just like, Whoa, this is so expensive. And Miranda's like, Let me buy it for you. And then they're at the till.

Steve's credit card is not working. Miranda offers to pay for it. And that's when Steve starts losing his school.

And what do you think about that? How Steve handled that? Miranda offering to pay, because even in this day and age, I think there's a lot of men that fight women being more financially stable or powerful than them, very emasculating.

The first thing that I thought when I saw the scene was, I don't know, there are no other types of suits.

My husband was also next to me and I was like, 1,800 bucks for a suit in the 90s. That's a lot. Yeah, that must be a really expensive suit.

Yes.

Right?

Because you can find suits for 200, 300. Now, we don't know the backstory. Was it Miranda that was insisting on him buying it from this shop?

If that is the case, I'm... This is for her.

Yeah.

Right? It's not for him.

Yeah.

However, if you go a bit deeper, it's true that it's mainly for her, but their inability to say it as that, because he doesn't want it. He doesn't need it. She needs that.

She needs him to go to this dinner looking a certain way. But the problem is that it taps them into his own insecurity, because he has one.

If he was completely comfortable in the sense that I generally don't care, like this is who I am, you take me as I am, fine, you want me to go to this dinner and look a certain way, because that's a reflection of you as a lawyer in this firm, fine,

buy it for me. I can't afford that. What I'm willing, for me, what I can pay is maybe a suit for 200, 300. If you want to add the bling bling to it and blah blah, then that's because you want that.

I don't need that. I don't need to do that.

Yeah. And what do you think about when Steve shows up? I know this is a show, but he shows up and Miranda is like, why are you dressed like that?

And I love that Steve was like, I think, well, I don't love the fact that he said, I think you should be with someone that is at your level. But like, I love the fact that he said, I returned it, I cannot afford it. That must have been really hard.

And he also said, being with you in that store made me feel really bad about myself. And now I would ask you, if you were Steve therapist, would you also tell him like, this is not the relationship for you?

I wouldn't say this is not the relationship for you. I would say, you have to be able to have this conversation in this relationship. You clearly like her.

She clearly also likes you, right? Otherwise, I mean, the two of you wouldn't be together. So there is something there.

What I would encourage him to say is that, because pay attention to what she says to her friends. She says, he's happy with who, like it's not that he's an artist wanting to become, like a bartender wanting to become an artist.

He's a bartender and he is satisfied. He's happy with this life. So what I think made him feel not right is the fact that he's being asked to change for this person.

That change, he can't afford it on different levels, probably intellectually as well, from a financial perspective. On many levels, he can't afford that. For me, it would be that conversation of, does she need you to become someone else?

If she says, please, I would love for you to come to this firm dinner with me, can we have the conversation where you actually say, I'm not going to be that kind of partner? Regardless of the money, some partners are just like, I'm not...

I have friends that are married and there are limits in places. I'm not going to be the wife that's going to come and network with you in certain event. Maybe pick one over 10, whereas they would like for the partner to be there 10 over 10.

But pick one and I'll come, but I'm not going to be this partner and you have to be okay with it if we're going to be together.

Because I think when I look at the potential of relationships, as I'm getting older and seeing like how much, like how strong are the pillars of this relationship and what's the longevity of it, I guess I would get my pillars as like, okay, what are

your family values? What's your lifestyle like? For me, it is important, like not for them to be at my level, but I definitely don't want to be sponsoring our lifestyle. I want that to be matched and I don't want to step down.

I don't mind being spoiled. And then obviously like what's your plan for the future in terms of like, what do you see yourself in? And in that equation for Miranda and Steve, I guess, and I personally also need to look up and respect who I'm with.

And to me also that comes as like an ambition in career. Where do you think, because we obviously see how Miranda and Steve pan out, but like, do you think that that relationship was a bit doomed?

Yes, I've always said that. Like for me, you know also when a couple like breaks up, come back, because you know that there's stuff there, right?

I mean, it's not to say that it's not a good relationship even if you did break up, but there is stuff there. And that stuff, the reality of it is that it hasn't really changed. I mean, I remember later on, he ends up opening his bar.

Okay, that's more ambitious. But the difference here is that he clearly says that he doesn't want anything more. That's the difference, right?

And the problem with this relationship is because Miranda cares a lot about her career. So, and then you have to again go a bit deeper in the sense that what makes her love and respect another person? Yeah.

And if supporting each other, having these intellectual conversations, pushing each other, being strategic about our lives, and it's a very core thing in this relationship, then yes, it's not going to work.

However, if she is very much craving this... When I'm at work, it's really very intense. And once I go out of it, I want my life to have nothing to do with my career.

And this is what we end up seeing later on, that Steve is this very safe space, he takes care of the family, he's the...

Housewife.

Yeah, I was going to say the house husband. But he's that. And then that's great because if she doesn't...

That is a great deal to have one of the people in the couple to be a high achiever, then the other one to be there to take care of the base. We see it all the time, but just reversed, you know. If he is happy to take that role, then yes.

But if Miranda was a... Let's say Miranda was a Samantha. Samantha is very much around the career.

Like we see it after with Smith. Like she... They're both very ambitious.

They're traveling. They pick up the phone. You know, where are you?

Let's meet there. Like we help each other. It's very...

That partnership is important. So it does come back down a bit to this.

I think... I agree with you, but like I think that even when the roles are reversed, more and more, I see some husbands that cheat on their wives that have been stay at home moms because they lose respect for them. They have nothing...

Like they have nothing in common.

Yeah.

I know. Okay. Then back to my girl Carrie.

They go to this party with Serena, I don't know what, in Park Avenue. Carrie is being a bitch. Yeah.

I like her when she's like that, but I'm like, use some tools in your toolbox, go to therapy, communicate.

Yeah, clearly.

And I would like to get your notes on how she is with Mr. Big, because I like a few things that she said.

So she basically is not in a good mood, she's going to smoke a cigarette to the terrace, runs into Jeremiah, who apparently is catering this party, but is also a very famous performance artist.

And then they're talking about his tattoo, and she's like, oh, how far down does it go?

And I thought, maybe I'm approved, but like if the role, like if I were her, I would never have that conversation with another man if I was in a committed relationship.

Yeah. But the moment that I saw her walk into the party, even before, and by the way, I had completely forgotten about this episode.

Okay.

Completely. Like, I don't even remember watching it. This is how much I dissociated with this episode.

But from the moment that she came, that she walked, and you see her, the outfit, the hair, the demeanor, and I was like, she is so rebellious. Like, she's going to fuck shit up, literally. I don't know what she's going to do.

I have no idea. But this is the face of a girl that is going to rebel tonight. And so when she does that, you can feel like she's a bit angry.

She's like, she's aggressive.

Yeah, she's aggressive.

She wants to rebel.

She's like, you know, it's like, like my parents are inside and we're like the kids smoking a cigarette in the garage and like we're, you know, we're rebelling against like the status quo and the, and, you know, these like Upper East Side, anal

I guess, yeah, the more, because I think she walks in and she also sees all these other women carrying the same purse that he gave her.

And I guess she's just like, the more you're going to try to put me in that box, the more I'm going to go and hang out with the cater waiters and like whatever. But I like the fact that when she walks back in, Serena's telling Mr.

Big, like basically I saw your date given a blowjob to the cater waiter. And Mr. Big goes over and is like, were you really giving a blowjob to the cater waiter?

And I like the way Carrie handled herself, cause she was like, he's not a cater waiter, he's a very famous performance artist. And he was like, that doesn't answer my question. And she says, because your question is offensive.

I love that.

Didn't you feel like it was a bit of a child-parent relationship in that moment? Like the being told off and her, you know, like just, I think it's a great response, by the way, but knowing that children often give great response to parents.

She was being told off, you know, for misbehaving in the party. And then he tells her, you're embarrassing me.

Yes.

It's very...

And then when she walks up and she's like, you go, I'm having a good time. That was very childish.

But no, but in a good way. It's like, it's a... That's what I meant by like, she's rebelling against something, like he represents something and she's struggling with it.

She doesn't agree with it. That's why she picks up on that comment.

Yeah.

It's like why, you know, he's like, he's a great performance artist. So it's, she's rebelling, but I like that.

Yeah. And then I guess Mr. Big leaves and we see Carrie walking back home with Jeremiah.

They're both wasted. They kiss and they wake up the next morning because Mr. Big calls her.

And that's when they have that conversation saying like, I know what you're really mad about. And they have the conversation that you said, like it's very hard for me to say I love you.

And she keeps quiet and I feel like for one, she's not trying to fill in his words and the silences and making excuses for his lack of availability. And he does say it, I love you. So she says, whatever happened before I love you doesn't count.

So I'm never going to tell him about Jeremiah. What do you think of that?

I didn't like that.

Okay.

I didn't because she just invented a rule that was convenient for her.

So you think that if you cheat, because sometimes I feel it's kind of selfish to confess.

Oh yeah. I'm not saying that she should have confessed. I'm just saying that rule that she created like that.

It's bullshit.

It's just I don't believe in rules that are convenient.

It's just like it was convenient to say that.

Yeah.

But like a couple of days maybe before, she was about to break up with this person for not like, so obviously it was a very big deal for her.

Yes.

This relationship is a big deal.

Yes.

So now the cheating or the kissing with her. This is not to say like she has to go and say it, but for me, as long as you don't create rules out of convenience and that your partner is also aligned.

Right.

That you both feel like, okay, we were dating and for me, for instance, it was from the moment that we kissed, I think on the third date that I felt like, okay, I actually don't want to see someone else. This was my little thing.

But before we kissed, I was talking to two or three other people, and then that hit it for me. But for me and for him, and obviously we didn't talk about it, but it was like a Susan Tansier, we just knew.

But for her, I just felt like it was out of convenience.

It was out of convenience, but in the greater scheme of things, I think she tries so hard to be the perfect girlfriend that she thinks he wants. That I was like, yeah dude, fuck shit up. And like, Jeremiah doesn't matter, you matter.

And he doesn't matter.

The truth is, is that in the bigger picture, which we know about, he really doesn't matter. So I agree that sometimes there are things that you do that you know it doesn't matter. It's not, it shouldn't be part of the story.

It's a fuck up, you know? And if you were to really be honest, perhaps the relationship is not strong enough, he would have thought that she's like... So I understand not telling him.

For me, it was just like, like she could have, maybe in the episode, it would have just been like I decided not to tell him because he doesn't matter in the story.

Yes.

Fine.

Yes.

But it's the, like I said, it's just the creating something now, that...

Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. I haven't really talked about Charlotte and Samantha because I think, you know, they have really funny stories, but like less relevant to therapy. So maybe we can skip to the advice to the girls.

But in this episode, Charlotte meets like a celebrity at the gallery and like say, you know, he's the equivalent of Leonardo DiCaprio right after the beach.

And she kind of like throws away all her, like Connecticut Park Avenue persona to be in the clique of this dude. I have two questions for you.

The first one would be, if you were Carrie and she had called you from the limousine, would you also have told her to run?

No.

Right? It's a fun story.

Yeah. I would have been like, have fun.

But what would you tell her as a therapist if she was like, oh, you know, like, he made me do a bunch of things that didn't feel like me.

Did she say that over? No, no.

But like, you can see that she is like carrying the drinks and like, she becomes a groupie and then he blows.

But she picked herself up.

She did.

Right? Yes. And like, it's everybody has their own limit of how much bullshit they're willing to take.

I love that she knows what that limit is and that she just had like this moment of like, OK, I'm like, I'm snapped out of it. This is where I draw the line.

Because to me, what I read out of this is like, it's fine, you know, go down the rabbit hole, maybe do things that are not for you as long as like you catch yourself. And then you have walked the walk, you learn the lesson.

That's where you drew the line.

Yeah. And also you get to know quite a lot about yourself and how low sometimes we're willing to go. Yeah.

And then obviously again, as a therapist, it's like, why? Why was I willing to go this low? And perhaps, and I love it because it was so short-lived.

Yeah.

As exactly that situation should have been.

Yeah.

So for me, there was no more or less, like it started very fast.

It ended also very fast. Great. And then, you know, you just, you take it for what it is.

It was a bit thrilling for her, the limousine, the all of that. She has a funny story.

Yeah.

Let's say you move on with your life.

Okay. And would you, how would you tell her to sit, like, let's say after everything, Charlotte goes back home and she's feeling shameful about it.

Because like, oh my God, like I was carrying the drinks and like he blew, like a joint inside my mouth and blah, blah, blah. What if somebody saw me? I closed the gallery too early.

How do you deal with those feelings of like maybe shame after, even though she picked herself up at the end?

I would ask her who inside of you felt the need to do all these things?

Yeah.

Because there's someone, right?

Yeah.

There's a girl inside of you, again, like a rebel, that is able to just say, fuck everything, I don't care. I'm just going to go and do that.

There's a very interesting comment when she says like the submissive part, like he has this power where he tells me to do stuff and I just, I want to obey. I think she even used the word obey.

So there is a side, that for me are two different sides, but it's like she's, someone else was in control and was just telling her and she was a bit enchanted in it.

So I would give voice to that side of her that did all these things and be like, all right, well, clearly, there's a need somewhere every now and then, maybe for that voice to come out.

How can we make that side of you come out, have a good time while still, you know, respecting the way that you usually do things?

Yeah, because, you know, sometimes I'll have clients that like, you see there's quite a lot of repetitive rebellious behavior.

Yeah.

So obviously someone inside is wanting to rebel against something.

Yeah.

What are we rebelling against? Yeah. How does this rebellious feel satisfying for you to be like, okay, I got it out of my system.

And then obviously sometimes, you know, it's a bit destructive because it can be around like binge drinking or alcohol or, you know, a lot of sex or so. So you just you always want to make sure that the person is safe.

And like, it's just it's it's well maintained. And right. But you give voice to that.

You don't you don't problem that you have people do is that you shut it down.

Okay.

Because of the shame.

Yeah. And then Samantha is dating this guy that has a servant called some. And how would you have reacted?

Because I was very shocked at Samantha's reaction. Samantha is in PR. I would have worked that some back into like what I needed from the guy that I was dating.

How would you have reacted if you were in her position and you were dating somebody with a servant that was basically all nice and good manners and super, you know, service forward. But then as soon as he turned around, she was a bitch to her.

I thought I like obviously I have so much respect for Samantha. And I think it just like multiplied by a hundred in that scene where like, like the moment that she's just like, okay, bye, and she leaves.

I was just like, that woman has literally no time for any toxicity, any bullshit relationship, like even set up. She's, and I just, I love that. I love the fact that she didn't even try to defend herself.

She said it like, like you don't want to, she says something like, I also have something to say, or like you don't want to, and he says, no, I can't believe you. And she was just like, okay. I mean, obviously not in this way.

Like she, she leaves like all of a sudden, but I respect that so much of-

She knows who she is, she knows the truth.

100%, and I don't have an ounce of more time that I'm going to give to this. And she's like, she's just very good at removing herself from something that doesn't work for her.

I'm going to like burn that into my memory, because I was like, wait, say something, because I would have been like, no, you know that I'm so nice.

I would have done the complete opposite, because we- unfairness, being treated unfairly, is very much like of an ego thing, right? Because the ego needs to prove that actually it's good, and it's right, and please love me, and please like-

So for her to have done that in a moment, I find it to be a very- like people that are highly spiritually connected, very zen would have reacted this way of just- Can I explain?

No? Done. I'm out.

And I thought- I just- I was like, well done.

I have a lot of work to do.

Okay, then for Miranda, I think, you know, how- Because I think at the end of the episode, she's at the party alone, and she's like- She kept thinking what was wrong with Gold Quarter Roy anyway.

How- Because they break up over this. What would you have told her?

Because it is a big thing to have such difference in economy and buying capacity or whatever you call it. How would you have coached her around it? Because I'm such a hopeless romantic, I would have been like, fight for it.

If you really think there's nothing wrong with Gold Quarter Roy, sit down with Steve and have a conversation of like, what are you comfortable to give me? And are you comfortable with me being maybe the one that earns more money here?

It's interesting that you say this because I was going to ask, I would have asked her that question. What are you comfortable with receiving? And when she says at the end like, but actually what was wrong with that suit?

I was just thinking like, she, I think she didn't necessarily stop to really think about it.

I think she's, you know, being a woman in a law firm in the 90s, being like very driven, paying more money, you're sometimes a bit too distracted by that issue in itself. For me, I don't think it was that issue with Steve.

And actually, we see it later on. He doesn't mind her being the main breadwinner in the family. He doesn't mind that.

So I think that was almost like the beginning for her to start. Like if she was my client, I would have been like, let's actually explore. Why did you say no to that suit straight away?

Was it the look? Were you afraid of what people were going to think? So let's dig a bit deeper into what this brings up for you.

Because she does have this ability to... She's very fair. I find her to be one of the most reasonable out of the four.

She's well balanced. If it makes sense, she can go with it. She's quite rational.

And I like that about her. In that comment, my first thought was like, I don't even know that she realized how important some stuff are and aren't for her, and what she's willing to let go of or not.

So what was a bit unfair on Steve's part was that he made the decision for them. Because he could have said, listen, I'm not going to go to this. I don't...

Like, let's talk a bit more about it when the event finishes. I'm very comfortable with who I am. I know that I can be this and this, but I cannot be this.

And then, you know, it's for her to decide, all right, well, how important is it for him to be that in my life? And so this, I wasn't... I thought it was a bit too...

Abrupt.

Yes.

But obviously, it then shows that he might also have some insecurities when it comes to this.

Yeah. Okay.

And then finally, for Carrie, how would you sit with a client that maybe has said, I love you, and she's like, there's still not that phone call, she's not receiving it back, and she's telling you, I think I'm going to have to break up with him.

What would you say?

First, I would roll my eyes. Even on my clients, I'd be like, stop it. Come on.

Come on.

Why?

What do those words represent for you? Is it just that, okay, we're on the same line?

It also means power. Like you feel...

Like you gave your power. Yeah, but that's what we call vulnerability. Sometimes you'll be vulnerable and it won't be reciprocated.

And how does that then feel for you to be standing there on your own with like this vulnerability, these like your heart being open and no one to come and reciprocate? And the complete opposite is someone completely owning up to...

By the way, I love you. There's absolutely no pressure for you to say something that you are not there, but this is... And I need to honor my truth.

My truth is that I am in a place right now where I have big feelings for you and I feel it and I felt the impulse, I felt the need to express that.

Yeah. I mean, in that, as I'm hearing you, I'm thinking like Carrie is so self-absorbed that even with something that was for him, she made it about her.

Of course. Of course she did, right? And then it's like the insecurity straight away is like, you need to then, it needs to be, for me to feel it back, because at the end of the day, these are just words.

Yeah.

It's a feeling.

Yeah.

For me to feel it back, it needs to look like this, like this, like this, like this.

And if it's not done in a week, then I break up, then it's like when someone proposes to someone, and they're not ready for that step, but they still want to be with this person.

And I find it so not nice when people break up just because they're not there. Like that is, it's, you know, you might, there might still need just one step more for you to be at that space.

It's not because you were there before the other person that it means that you just let go of everything.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So that's the episode. Now last, I know you have been so busy with Journey. It has been great to watch you travel, put the word out there, see the community grow.

I would love you to tell our listeners what's going on with Journey. What are you excited about? What's coming up?

Yeah.

So, I mean, in the listeners, I don't know if you have any therapists or coaches that are accredited coaches that are also listening to this. But if they are, I would love for them to come and join Journey.

The way I'm explaining it a little bit super simply is just like we're an online private members club in a way, you know, that is really exclusive to therapists and coaches. We do online events.

We have a community that is based in like 19 different cities. Like you were saying before, like we help them with their like businesses.

So whether it's growing their online presence, getting clients, finding different types of business opportunities to diversify their revenue, or just, you know, learning stuff.

And we're having amazing, amazing speakers coming and sharing their knowledge, giving, you know, people tools.

And I think it's just been really nice for the community to feel like they have a platform that actually really cares and like supports them and wants to grow with them.

And it's been really nice because, well, it's been very busy on my end because there are two things that I'm having to do now. It's getting new members. But then every member that comes in, I sit with everyone.

I know everyone on a personal level. I know where everyone is a bit in their own journey, what they might need from us. So, you know, it's a very personal thing.

Yeah.

And yeah, I just love meeting these incredible people.

And you've met some of our members.

Erica's coming back in a couple of episodes. Yeah. I love her.

Yeah.

But they're all amazing.

They are all amazing. And I also love your socials because I feel like you are introducing therapy in such a fun way that like is no longer that kind of taboo of like, oh, you're in therapy. What's wrong with you?

But it's more like, here are a bunch of tools. And like, I think you also humanized a lot of like issues like anxiety, shame, guilt and stuff like that in a way that is like, fuck, this really resonates with me. And I mean, I'm so proud of you.

Thank you.

So I'll plug in the website and the socials.

Thank you.

And yeah, for any therapist out there to reach out.

I appreciate that.

And obviously, if anyone wants to start that journey, they can always like message me privately and be like, hey, I'm looking for a therapist. This is what I'm looking for, more or less.

Can we get on the call 20 minutes just to tell like I can tell you. And then I'll personally create like, yeah, matchmake literally. Yeah.

Because I want people to find the right person for them.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Nicole.