Carrie Finally Cheats, Repetition Compulsion & Why "I Love You" From an Avoidant Is Your Favourite Drug — S3E9 with Dr. Morgan Anderson

About This Episode

In Season 3 episode nine of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV is joined by psychologist, attachment theory expert and host of the Let's Get Vulnerable podcast Dr. Morgan Anderson to unpack Sex and the City's "Easy Come, Easy Go." It's the episode where Mr. Big tells Carrie he made a mistake, he misses her and he loves her — and she loses her head. Miranda lets Steve sleep on her sofa out of guilt while he gives her number to a Coors Light executive. Charlotte accidentally proposes to Trey over a salad. And Samantha has a very difficult conversation she should have had weeks ago.

What We Cover

• Why Carrie leaving the apartment because Aidan's floor sanding is too loud is actually self-abandonment in disguise

• "I miss you, I made a mistake, I love you" — why those three sentences from an avoidant man are the psychological equivalent of handing a drug addict their favourite drug

• Repetition compulsion and the father wound: why we keep recreating the same painful dynamic hoping for a different result

• Anxious attachment meets avoidant attachment: why Mr. Big is Carrie's comfort zone even when Aidan is objectively better for her

• Following your heart vs. following your head — why Dr. Morgan says you're actually following your attachment style and calling it your heart

• The wise mind concept: how to make relationship decisions from an integrated, not binary, place

• Why Carrie's obsessive replaying of Big's voicemail is really about one unhealed belief — that she wasn't good enough to be chosen

• Charlotte saying "maybe we should get married" and Trey saying "all righty" — two people self-abandoning in real time

• Miranda giving Steve so much grace out of guilt: the difference between compassion and betraying your own boundaries

• Avoidant attachment doesn't hurt less — it just gets stuffed down: Dr. Morgan sets the record straight

• Samantha and the communication she kept avoiding: why self-abandonment in the bedroom builds resentment

• How long it actually takes to heal attachment patterns at the root — Dr. Morgan's answer is more hopeful than you think

About Our Guest

Dr. Morgan Anderson is a psychologist, relationship coach, attachment theory expert and creator of the Empowered Secure Love method — a three-month programme that has helped over 1,000 women break insecure attachment patterns and attract emotionally available partners. She is also the author of Love Magnet and host of the Let's Get Vulnerable podcast. Find her wherever you listen to podcasts and at all links in the show notes.

Transcript

Welcome back, boundary babes, and welcome to another episode of And just Like That, we Found therapy.

Today I am joined by Doctor Morgan Anderson, host of the Let's Get Vulnerable podcast, and we are unpacking an iconic episode of Sex and the City, the one where Carrie finally cheats.

Naden with Mr. Big, if you have been waiting for us to get to this moment, today's your day.

Doctor Morgan is an attachment theory expert and she sheds so much light on me.

I mean, Carrie, let's get into it.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And just Like That, we Found Therapy.

I am your host, Isabel MV, and I am super excited to introduce you to Doctor Morgan Anderson.

She is a psychologist, relationship coach, attachment theory expert, creator of the ESL Relationship Method, which is empowered, secured and loved.

Not English as a second language as I first thought.

Author of the Love Magnet book and host of the Let's Get Vulnerable podcast.

Welcome, Doctor Morgan.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to be here.

We've got a lot of things to talk about.

Yes, I feel like you would have been an Angel, Santa Carrie, with all your attachment knowledge.

Today we're here to discuss Season 3, Episode 9 of Sex and the City.

Easy come, easy go.

And the episode starts with Miranda saying goodbye to her cat and we are fresh out of the breakup between her and Steve, and Steve is sleeping in her sofa with her dog.

My first question to you is, what are your thoughts on this?

Because I understand that if it's such a big relationship, you kind of want to honor the relationship that was.

But what is the line between that and healthy boundaries?

There's a lot there.

I think Miranda's feeling guilt.

I think she's feeling guilt and she's also feeling sadness.

And I think she sees Steve and she goes, Oh my goodness, you know, I, I want to take care of him.

She had that pull to take care of him.

So if we if we look at this, what are the healthy elements?

I think there's this piece about, all right, when I really care about somebody, I can show up in integrity even in the breakup, and I can try to do what's best for that person and for me.

But obviously in an ideal scenario you you would not be sleeping on your ex's SOPA.

You would have a clean.

Breath and I have a lot of friends that live in New York and, you know, I I understand there's all these different factors, right?

But it's like he probably could have gone to a friend's house.

There's probably other places.

Yeah, he could have gone.

So I think Miranda, she's, she's avoiding saying goodbye and she's also letting her guilt do do the talking here.

Then after that seed, we switch on to Carrie and Aiden.

They're at the new Designer Showcase and they're flirting very cornally, so we can tell that they're happy.

And then Aiden goes to get coffee, and Carrie sees Mr. Big and Natasha, and she tries to hide, which doesn't work.

And this is kind of very hard to watch.

So from an attachment lens, what do you think that is actually being activated for Carrie and the scene?

And what is maybe a grounded, emotionally mature way to face seeing your ex with their new bow?

Oh.

There's so much in this scene, isn't there?

We see Carrie and Aiden in this, you know, they seem happy, they seem relaxed.

If if we saw just that clip of them together in the booth, we go, oh, they're secure and they're happy and they're connected, right.

But then Mr. Big shows up right with with his wife and it's like you see the body language change immediately on on Carrie to if I'm her, I think in a subconscious way, I'm going, there's the woman that was better than me.

There's the evidence that I wasn't good enough and that I wasn't picked for some reason.

So there's all kinds of, you know, she spills the coffee on him.

Isn't that great?

It's like, I know you're probably talking about that.

She goes and tries to clean it but it's in his crotch and Natasha's like no I got this.

There's so much happening there like that, even just the symbolism, right?

Of like, Oh my gosh, she's, you know, getting it where it hurts.

Yeah.

Just that going back to that piece about, wow, this is this is the woman that was good enough.

This was the woman that was better than me.

I think on a subconscious level that's that's going on for her.

For sure.

And to be honest with you, part of me asks you like, what is like a grounded, emotionally mature way to handle that?

Because I thought Carrie's first instinct was the right one.

It's like I'm not ready to face this, so let me try to avoid.

Yes, yes, honestly, yes.

I think if you're in that place where you know it's going to be emotionally regulating, where you don't trust yourself to be able to show up in a way that is, you know, healthy for you, it makes sense to just try to not be seen to leave, to remove yourself.

You have to listen to yourself, right?

But but on the other hand, if we think about how, how can we show up just in a healthy way, I think the first thing we need to do tune into ourselves.

Like what would have happened if she would have paused taking a breath and said, you know what?

I am safe.

I am OK.

I am enough.

I'm in a healthy, amazing relationship.

I can show up and interact with kindness, you know?

I wonder how that would have changed what she was feeling internally.

And I think you can kind of see that in the scene when Aiden shows up, she's almost like relief, like I'm not the loser that was not picked and not good enough by him because somebody else picked me, which is a slippery slope.

Like I I do think that Carrie handled it with as much grace as this character has been given, but it is so tricky to be able to stand by yourself.

If there was no Aiden, yeah, that would have completely sent her on a loop.

And and I think there's so much there, right?

Yeah.

Like he shows up and then she feels, she feels enough in that moment, right.

And even if we go to Natasha and big in that scene, he's making the joke about Natasha only liking miniature furniture and he's he's sort of.

In front of he's.

Putting his partner down in front of an ex.

I was going to say.

There's just so much avoidant attachment, you know, I mean, we'll, we'll talk about that.

But yeah, he's poster child for avoidant attachment.

So of course, like shortly after this unravels, we get Mr. Victoria coming back to the booth, Carrie's by herself, and he's kind of drunk and sloppy and he kind of gets a piece of paper, uses this as like a megaphone.

And he's like, I have news for you, it's not working.

I'm getting out.

If you know anybody who's interested and Carrie's like he should keep that to yourself, nobody's interested.

But that is kind of like the ticking bomb going off, yeah.

He plants the.

Seeds and he also kind of disrespects, yeah, and he disrespects Eden's furniture by putting like his drink on the wood.

The whole thing is very triggering.

But Carrie, kind of like Lisa does that is like, go to your wife.

You're drunk.

And we kind of like, Fast forward into the girls at Branch talking about it.

And I was like, Mr. Big is getting a divorce.

And like, everybody's chiming in.

They're talking about like, OK, bravo, you're the winner in this breakup.

He's miserable.

They talk about the fact that he's only been married for seven months.

And Miranda says, well, that's what happens when you jump into a relationship too quickly, which triggers Charlotte because she's in the mists of like getting to know Trey.

And she says, I can feel it.

It's love.

So it I cannot explain it, but I know it in my heart and I can feel that we're about to get engaged.

What do you think about Charlotte and the scene with her whole relationship with Trey?

And what do you think about relationships that move too fast?

Do you think that is maybe more about avoiding loneliness and vulnerability rather than genuine connection?

I just love this series so much because when we look at these characters, I think we can all see parts of ourselves, right?

And I I see so many women who have that dream that Charlotte has just want to be married.

I just want to be buried.

I just want to be married and chosen.

And I don't want to date anymore.

And, and Charlotte has put that dream and she's connected it to herself worth to her being good enough.

And she's put that above all else.

And when we invest so heavily into something and we're, we're living in this fantasy of what we think it is and what what it means about us, we don't see the whole picture.

We don't, we don't slow down enough to gather all the data on the relationship.

And we really, we get into trouble, right?

Which we know happens later.

So how do you think that we can differ real intimacy versus chasing intensity?

Because this to me, it's tricky, especially in early stages.

Yeah, when you have an insecure attachment style and particularly anxious attachment as a strategy, there's this belief and it's like a nervous system pattern of let me just invest as much as possible as quickly as I can because then I'm not going to be abandoned.

And because the thing that I want the most in the world is to be close.

I just want to be close to somebody and I want to be chosen and I don't want to be abandoned.

And so we invest so much, so much, so much, right?

We have to get to the point where we are no longer outsourcing our self worth where we go, hey, I am enough as I am.

I am enough as a single person and I'm going to allow myself to slow down and gather the data and let someone earn my emotional investment.

When when we're investing in somebody before we have the data of OK, how do they navigate conflict?

How do they show up as a partner?

Do they do what they say they're going to do When we're investing before we have that data?

I always say it's like driving a train down a track that that we don't know if the track's been built or not.

Is the track there or not.

It's very easy to drive the train off of the tracks.

You know we don't, we don't have the data on someone.

No, I absolutely love that.

I think that's a great way to think about it.

After that, the scene is man and Steve looking at one of the apartments that Steve has found, and it is so grim.

So man does like, Yikes.

I don't think so.

I don't care.

You're staying with me.

I'll help you.

Look, you just cannot live in a place like this.

Fast forward to Miranda and Carrie talking about it, and Miranda is just saying what you mentioned earlier.

She feels so guilty because she's doing so well and he's a bartender.

She can, he cannot afford anything better.

And Carrie says like, maybe don't you think that you just don't want him to move away?

And Miranda's like, no, I just can't do that to the to the guy.

So Carrie goes home and she starts thinking about with a voice over that it is known that women use the left more emotional side of the brain versus men that use the right more logical side of the brain.

Is this true in any psychological, neuro, scientifical way?

Honestly, no.

I think that these were these were stereotypes that were painted for us for forever and ever and ever.

So this was a very loosely researched starting point for Carrie's column this.

Week and I think like when when we think about that it's like the roles that we were put into as women and the roles we were put into as men There's there's so many factors here but men are just as emotional as we are.

Yeah, but are they allowed to express it you know yeah they've been we've just all been conditioned in different ways and and actually if we look at the research now the avoidant attachment style so you know Mr. Biggs attachment style where we're we're shutting everything down.

I would say Miranda's in that camp as well.

It is steadily growing with with women.

So, so there's a lot more women that are showing up with avoiding attachment than ever before.

So I think it's like we have to start.

We can't just throw everybody in the in a box with gender.

Just doesn't work that way.

But Doctor Morgan, you're making that sound like the world is just becoming a more and more hostile place.

Hey, it's all the more reason to say, you know what?

I don't want to show up that way.

I'm I'm going to intentionally show up and learn how to be secure.

Yeah, no, I agree.

But I love how based on this loose research that Carrie did for her column, she's kind of like thinking out loud.

And she says that through breakups, there was a battle between what we know and what we feel.

So the title of her column or the theme of her column is when it comes to relationships, is it better to follow your heart or your head?

And this is what I have been taught, that love is something that you feel you cannot explain is not logical.

What do you think about this?

It makes for a really great column, but it's not very helpful.

Yeah, it's not very helpful.

There's something called wise mind in dialectical behavior therapy.

It's not really important where it comes from, but wise mind is this concept that we have our intellectual brain and our emotional brain, right?

And we get to have both of them, and we get to make decisions from an integrated place.

It's not really this black and white thinking of it's all my heart or it's all my head.

And, and you know, here's the real truth.

When it, when I hear someone say I just follow my heart and it gets me in trouble.

The first thought that I have after helping thousands of people is you're following your attachment style and you're labeling it as your heart.

And you're, you're letting, you're letting your beliefs about relationships, your old relationship models, you're, you're letting those get you into trouble.

And actually your heart, like I, I really believe your heart is connected to your highest and best self, the version of you that fully loves themselves, that has really healthy relationship patterns.

And I would I would say that is actually going to pick a different partner than your attachment style.

So it's interesting the language that we give to to these right my head verse my heart.

It's like, honey, it's not your heart.

It's actually.

It's your.

Fast relational trauma.

It's your attachment style and it's not.

It's not always serving you.

Fair enough.

After that, we meet Bunny McDougal.

Charlotte is out having lunch or dinner with them, and the whole thing is just like, I guess out of the book of what Charlotte would have pictured as her white knight.

Like, they're at a private members club and they're super preppy.

They talk tennis and country and Charlotte kind of picks up on this thing that Bunny does to Trey to get him to do what she wants.

And she kind of clocks that and she's just delighted with the whole thing.

And then we get introduced to Samantha's storyline.

She's dating Bobby Cannavale, who's this successful film editor, and they are having sex.

She goes down on him.

And we Fast forward to the girls at brunch.

And she was like, girls, I am seeing the guy with a funkiest tasting spunk.

And Charlotte just like, stands up and leaves.

And then Samantha, she's like, well, who am I going to talk to about if it's not you guys?

And they all start chiming in about what it could be that is costing this taste that Samantha described as a trip to the buffet of rotten eggs.

As a doctor, I have to ask you, what do you think could be some of the reasons why a man could be suffering for such a from such a thing?

You know, I know I talked about this in the episode, but diet is actually a real, a real consideration diet for sure hormone about I mean, there's all kinds of it's connected to the body, right?

It's connected to the body.

And then I think what I get so fascinated about this is Samantha's inability to address this just directly.

Yeah.

With him, you know, that it takes so long.

Yeah.

That this has become such an issue for her, and she's waiting to bring it up.

There's that self abandonment.

Self abandonment.

Which is not common in her, but I think Miranda says like, why don't you just give him like don't give him head any longer?

And she's just like, I hadn't even thought of that, which I guess for Samantha, because relationships are just about sex and that's what he enjoys.

She's just like, well, this was the contract.

See, it's so fascinating for me to watch this now because I, I realize the things I learned about relationships when I watched it.

Gosh, I don't know what was I in my 20s, maybe the first time or late teens.

What I realize now is Samantha sees herself as a sexual object and the people that she's with as a sexual object.

And that's really what they are.

And there's beliefs about I have to perform.

I have to be good and bad.

I have to be a certain way in order to be worthy of the sexual connection, right?

And when I, I, I realized, Oh my gosh, I internalized this, that you have to be good in bed.

You have to give a good blowjob in order to be chosen and like associating sexual performance with worthiness.

So for Samantha, that's what she's got, you know what I mean?

So like, why is she not say or what?

Why is she hesitant to not give a blowjob?

And I think it's because that's what she's got.

She's a sexual object.

She's you know that that's that fills up herself, herself esteem and herself worth.

No, it's fascinating.

It's interesting.

Even when we see this play out later in the episode and Samantha tells him, like, I don't want to do it because your sperm tastes like shit.

The guy is just like, oh, come on, I don't believe you like the shit that you make up not to do it.

And I think probably 4 out of five women, if they were told like, I don't go down on you because your vagina stinks, our first reaction would have been like, Oh my God, I am so sorry.

Are you for real?

What do you think it is?

Whereas men are just like, so comfortable with what they have to offer and like, take it and leave it.

And we're here for my pleasure.

Which is kind of like the narrative that I grew up with.

Women would get headaches when they were prompted for sex and it was all about the man getting pleasure.

And that's that narrative that you know, that women are a sexual object, right?

And I think it's, it's so important to realize that when we're with emotionally available, healthy, secure partners, they care about our enjoyment.

They, they want us to enjoy sex and they want to hear from us about what are our preferences and what, what do we want?

What do we not want to do?

Right?

It's like, I just think it's such a one-dimensional, it's the most intimate thing, right, Having sex.

But when you're not in an emotionally safe relationship and you're not emotionally connected, it really is more just transactional.

It becomes so surface level.

So then of course, we're not talking about preferences.

And you know, how do I really enjoy myself because it's just this transaction.

So it was very interesting to watch that now.

I mean, I'm so happy the tides are turning.

But yeah, it was very interesting.

A lot of us were raised that way as women that we're we're there to make sure the man has a good time and if we can't, then we have to be worried about being abandoned.

Yes, it is sad, but.

It that's really what we were taught like at the core, right?

That's so gosh, that's just yeah, I'm so glad things are changing.

But after this, Miranda gets to her apartment and she has a voicemail in her answering machine and it's for Steve is this Coors Light executive.

And she is very flirty on the phone.

I was like, is this Steve's line?

I just want to know, would you want to catch a movie?

I really want to see you call me The nerve of Steve to give away Miranda's number to a girl that is obviously hitting on him.

I'm just like, this is where I get really upset because I'm like all the grace that Miranda's showing for the sake of how beautiful the relationship was and how much he means to her.

That is so disrespectful, do you not agree?

It's very interesting because this was this was pre, pre cell phones, right?

I mean it's.

AI think only Mr. had a phone in a car and that's because he's loaded.

Right, that's right.

So, and on one hand, I can see where Steve's coming from.

And then, you know, what I was thinking about with that is that Miranda needed something like that.

She needed that to happen because she needed the she needed the reality of Steve is done.

Yeah, it's not just her that he's also done.

So.

So she needed that to happen.

It was inconsiderate.

Yeah, it was.

But ultimately it was going to happen one way or another.

And it just it just speed up the process.

It just speed up the process.

I mean, I love how you are spinning it, which is like sometimes the most horrible things happened to us just for us to move on faster.

So I'll take it as that.

Yeah, yes, yeah, yes.

But in an answering machine not so far away in Manhattan, Carrie gets another voicemail.

And it's from Mr. Big.

And it's very cryptic.

It's just like, hey, I need to talk to you.

Call me.

Bye.

And Carrie calls Miranda, and she's like, what do you think it means?

And Miranda, she's like, I don't know, like, what are what are we doing?

Like it's, it doesn't matter whatever happened to you, not being delusional or crazy.

You're with Aiden.

Like what are we doing listening to this voicemail?

And she's just like, well, after the 7th repeat, it kind of got through.

So obviously she's hyper fixated on this voicemail.

She's obsessing over it from an attachment perspective.

What does this kind of obsessiveness normally signal, and how do you interrupt that?

Just spiral in real time.

Such a good, good, good, good question here.

So she's, I think we have to keep in mind like she's in this relationship with Aiden where, you know, she's getting fully chosen.

And my goodness, he really is such a wonderful boyfriend.

Like if you look at Aiden throughout, you know, the series, but then she's got this this ex that there's that part of her that believes that she wasn't good enough, right?

And that that that's kind of why they broke up, etcetera.

And then he reaches out.

So I think when she's spiraling about this and she's playing the message over and over again, it's that unhealed part of Carrie that's going, but I just really want to be chosen right.

Whether I think this is unconscious for her.

I just really want to be chosen.

And there maybe there's this, there's this part of her that goes if I just had closure from him, she's telling herself the lie.

How many of us have told ourselves this lie if we just had this certain conversation?

And then if I could just get the closure, maybe I could fully move on.

So she is she is totally spiraling on this because she has connected it to some sort of outcome that she thinks having this conversation could change something for her.

Yeah, I think it feels like she cannot be complete until that loop is closed with her being chosen as well.

And then she gets to, maybe I'm projecting, but maybe like she she then gets to choose and she's like, okay, I have both options on the table.

I'm being chosen and I want to go for the healthy choice.

Yeah, and I will say this, you know, Mr. Big fits her model, right?

Like Carrie, I think ultimately has a lot of anxious attachment and Mr. Big fits her model of that unavailable person.

So so it's like, Oh my God, you've got Aiden over here talk, you know, ready to give you the world, but then you've got Mr. Big and and that fits her relationship model.

That's kind of her comfort zone.

And there's a whole other thing I could talk about called repetition compulsion.

That on the.

Father one.

Yeah.

The father one.

Yeah.

She's repeating that pattern.

And there's that.

Oh, it's this.

It's such a strong desire that I could just get a different result and then it's going to make up for everything in my past, every time I didn't feel good enough if I can just get that unavailable partner to choose me.

So she's getting sucked in by that.

It's like the kryptonite being waved in front of her.

This is your opportunity so that you'll finally feel good enough and feel chosen.

And she's she just can't quite say no to it.

I mean, I'm not going to lie, I am.

I am that through and through and as much therapy as I do both directly and via osmosis through this.

How do you think?

Because I was fascinating to fascinated to listen to listen to your episodes on mother wound, father wound in a child and then self love, which I think is kind of like your journey towards maybe healing or breaking out of that pattern.

Yes.

Is that what you think can be maybe the first step towards you healing out of that obsessive compulsion repetition?

Yes, it's always such a good question.

The first step is always awareness.

You know, we, we have to realize I am the common denominator in my relationships.

I'm the one repeating these patterns.

So it's just the awareness piece we have.

We have to start there and then we have to go back and revisit the root trauma.

This is what nobody wants to do.

We spend our whole lives avoiding this part.

It's really painful and what I've developed as a method where we go back and and revisit that root trauma.

And then you actually process the emotions that never got to be processed.

And then we intentionally let that go.

And once we let go of the root, then we can go and build a new model for relationships.

And then you find yourself no longer attracted to those unavailable partners 'cause they, they now, now you have a new model and you can effortlessly say no to that kind of partner.

Secure Carrie would have never called him back, would have you know, Secure Carrie doesn't engage with that.

She's like, oh, that's so unattractive.

Instead of it being unattractive to her, it pulls her in like quicksand because of her old relationship model.

How long do you think on average takes for somebody to kind of like go back and say like actually looking into my inner child, I can totally see exhibit A father won't played out this way and this way and mother won't and or this way How quickly?

Because I feel like I've been stuck on self-awareness for longer than I would like.

Yeah, that's all my clients who come to me.

So I got sick of people thinking that it took years and years to change.

So the method that I build it takes people about 3 months.

I think 3 months is a really good time frame that is too short and you can't, you can't do it alone is the thing.

You know, it's like you can have all this logical awareness, but you need someone to guide you through the process so that you go deep enough and you really do heal at the roots.

But yeah, it's a three month process for our clients on the other side of it.

They come out and they're attracted to totally different people.

I love that.

I cannot wait to pop all of this in the show notes because Carrie's obviously not there.

So she calls him back after Miranda leaves.

And he is such a Dick.

And he's just like, listen, I've thought about it.

If I get divorced, it would cost me too much.

I made my bed.

I need to lie in it.

She's like, you do that.

And they hung up and she kind of says, like, that's all I needed.

He's still the same, still a disappointment.

I'm over it.

She's in bed with Aiden.

And Aiden is kind of going through like, oh, you have cracks on your walls and I could like put plasters on them and I could strip your floors.

And Carrie's just like, here was a man that was trying to like make my home feel better and make me really strong.

And there was this other man somewhere else in Manhattan trying to destroy my sense of home.

It was not a left to right brainer.

31:53

It was a no brainer, which is how we get introduced to her going through this kind of like home improvement that triggers and catapults this into like the biggest storyline of the show.

32:09

So Aiden is stripping the floors in Carrie's apartment and Carrie's just like it's too noisy.

You said that I wouldn't be bothered, but I am bothered.

I have a deadline.

I cannot write and I'm going to a hotel.

If anybody calls, tell them I'm there.

32:24

I need to finish this article.

So she goes to the hotel and the phone and the room rings and it's Mr. Big.

He says he's in the lobby and to meet him there.

So she's like, OK, don't move.

She goes over, he's at the bar and she's like, this is not the lobby.

32:45

And they start having a conversation where, like, Carrie's very upset and she's like, I've got a deadline and a boyfriend and you've got a wife, like, and apparently a drinking problem.

What are you doing and big is just like slow down.

I'm trying to think and she kind of like storms out and he goes chasing after her.

33:07

And this is my problem.

And I think this is a problem of the show that I think is an enabler for many anxiously attached women that have stories with avoided men.

Because he says three things that I think would make me reconsider my current Mr. Big, which is I miss you.

33:27

I made a mistake.

I love you.

She's kind of trying to fight him off, but she can.

And that that line in this scene where she's like, my head was saying no, but my heart, my heart.

33:44

And just like that, she lost her head.

So I'm very curious to know what you think about this because I have trouble seeing that and not picturing a certain avoidant man in my life and being like fuck I don't know what I would do because I am smart enough to play it forward and say like he would still not be able to fulfill me but like I would struggle being able to say no in that moment.

34:12

So do you see this as self sabotage?

Trauma bonding?

Unfinished emotional business.

What do you think this is about?

Oh, there's so much here.

There's so much here.

It starts with how she responds to Aiden doing her floors.

34:29

You know, here we have this secure man who's wanting to invest in her, who's going to do free labor and make make her home better.

There's a lot of metaphors here, right?

It's like he wants to make her better and invest and give so much to the relationship.

And what does she do when it's interfering with her work?

34:47

She's not like, hey, I so appreciate you being here.

It's so much and I have a deadline so I'm going to go work on my stuff.

She gets annoyed with him, she gets annoyed and why is that?

She has a hard time accepting love.

35:03

It doesn't.

It doesn't fit her template for somebody to be giving to her and for her to be receiving and for somebody to be emotionally available.

I'm like, let's rewind it all the way back.

She probably should have never even left the apartment.

She self abandoned.

35:18

She could have said, hey, I really have this deadline.

Can you take a break?

There's stuff there she's not dealing with with Aiden.

IA 100% agree.

Yeah, so then she runs away from Aiden.

She's not dealing with the stuff with him.

Her inability to accept love, her inability to, like, communicate in a healthy way about what she needs while offering reassurance.

35:41

She gets annoyed and she leaves.

And then, yeah, Mr. Big shows up and those exactly what you said, those three things.

I made a mistake.

I miss you.

I made a mistake.

I love you.

You know, as someone who was in a relationship off and on for three years and my 1 issue was he wouldn't say I love you.

36:02

He didn't believe in saying it. 3 1/2 years with with this guy as I was breaking up with him.

What did he finally say?

Oh my God.

I love you literally in the breakup conversation after 3 1/2 years.

And of course, it's like when it's that thing that you wanted to hear and then you're hearing it, It's, it's incredibly challenging.

36:25

It's it's.

Did you not right?

Did you not kind of like, oh, you were off?

And on.

So it was, it was that breakup conversation.

And I think we were off and on for another six months to a year after that.

What do you think?

Messy.

Yeah.

What do you think it kind of like spills on to because obviously when there's something like that, that he's not emotionally capable for whatever reason to say something like that and then you finally get it.

36:53

But obviously that's not the only issue.

Like how did that show up if you don't mind me asking for you to?

Be done well I think I think for Carrie and just like for me in that scenario it's like him finally enough right I'm I'm I'm being chosen.

37:13

It's like getting handed if you were a drug addict getting handed your favorite drug your favorite drug.

It's right there being presented to you on a bladder.

What are you supposed to do?

You know, when you're, when you're addicted to that and then it's being handed to you, it's nearly impossible to not engage with it.

37:34

So for Carrie specifically in that moment with Mr. Begg, she's got this stuff.

She's not dealing with with Aiden.

He's right there.

He's pursuing her.

Oh my God, he's pursuing her.

That's what she wanted the whole time, right?

37:51

They're in this dance.

So of course, of course, the dance continues.

Yeah.

OK, so this maybe catapults me into the last bit of my episodes where I ask you to give advice to the girls.

I think for Carrie, you would have to definitely do the three month conversion therapy or however we want to call.

38:13

Carrie, come, come to the Empowered Secure Love program.

You'll probably need a few top UPS, but OK.

So I think we covered this because my question for her was how does someone who's been romantically attached to avoid and men begin healing that pattern and moving towards secure attachment, which I guess comes from like first showing up for yourself, having that self love.

38:36

But obviously, I think it's very interesting what you touched upon that is like, don't forget to go to the root.

Yeah, go.

Go to the roots of of the patterns.

Go to the roots of the patterns because otherwise you'll just keep repeating them.

You'll just keep re recreating them.

And I would love Carrie to be single.

You know, it's like why?

I know that doesn't make for good TV, but she needs she needs a period where she's not dating at all.

I think she has that at some point in season 5 or something when Sarah Jessica Parker is actually pregnant and she has such disdain for herself that she thinks she's also going to get fired as a writer, and I think that's when they offer.

Her she's dealing with she's dealing with herself worth issues.

Finally, instead of using a man to temporarily put band aids on the self worth, she's probably finally faced with her own worthiness stuff.

OK, so then about Charlotte, just to close the loop on her storyline, she kind of like because she clocks how Bunny manipulates Trey.

She tries that on at a dinner where they're having a salad.

She suggests that he switches a salad.

And he says like, oh, Charlotte, this is just lovely.

How do you know me so well?

And Charlotte says, well, maybe we should get married.

And Trey famously says all righty.

And then she's kind of very bummed out about it because that's not the way that she pictured her perfect man doing the perfect proposal to go on to the perfect wedding slash marriage.

So what would you gently challenge in how Charlotte is approaching love, and especially her desire to control outcomes and rush commitment?

Today's version of Charlotte is the woman who is looking at everybody's Instagram highlight reels and is is looking at those perfect weddings and the perfect marriages and coming up with this idea of what perfect should be.

And, and someone who is afraid of conflicts and somebody who's self abandoning.

And it's just prioritizing the wedding and the marriage above all else.

And we also see Trey self abandoning with his mother, with Charlotte.

You know that it's that cue when when he says all righty, it's him abandoning himself and just going along with the powerful.

What what the woman says.

So really the key here is we want relationships that are intimate, that are close, that are based in reality, where we have two people being their authentic selves, not just relationships that look good, but relationships that feel good.

Yeah, their their relationship looked good.

I don't think it felt good emotionally.

I don't think either one of them was their authentic self.

Or sexually like this is.

Yeah, OK.

What about Miranda?

If she were your client, what would you say about giving Steve so much grace out of guilt?

And how to show compassion without betraying her own boundaries.

Yes, I think that I, I would really work on Miranda feeling her feelings if she was my client.

And like, I know you're logical and you can be, you know, she's a lawyer, but I, I would need her to get into her emotions and to actually allow herself to grieve.

And then from that place of letting things go, feeling her emotions, then we would problem solve what is the what is the best thing for her to protect her herself and protect your boundaries.

Yeah, there's one thing about their storyline that really pisses me off because after like, Steve comes back or doesn't come back home and Rihanna gets awoken by the dog and she realizes that he is with the Coors Light executive, which like, again, the fucking nerve.

And in the morning, Steve is just like, oh, I guess I should get out of here today.

I'm so sorry it's taking me so long.

And Miranda turns around and she's just like, I was going to say something, but it's stupid.

And Steve is like, no say.

And he's like, keep in touch.

And then they're like, oh, we didn't do so bad.

We did.

We did US proud.

I'm like, no you didn't.

Do you think they handled it well?

Because I thought the whole thing was so messy.

If my the love of my past 10 years did that to me, I'd be like wait a shit on what would have been my perfect ending to a healthy mature relationship.

I I guess I see it differently because I think it was done.

It was done.

I command you.

I I see it differently, but but I do think here's what I would have liked.

I don't think Miranda was really truly vulnerable.

No.

Like there there was always.

And doesn't this happen later?

Like I have to jog my memory, but isn't there sort of a moment where we're like, are they getting back together at some?

Point.

The thing is that this is already the second time around and they have a bit of a team where Steve is challenging Miranda, being like Miranda's like sometimes you're the man because she is not vulnerable.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So I think if anything, what bothered me there was that I don't think we really got to see Miranda's, you know, you know, when she gets injured at some point in the series, right?

That's one of the only times, one of the only times we see her vulnerable and she gets so pissed that Carrie doesn't come and she sends Aiden and you know, and it's like, I just thought that's what I would have wanted.

I would have wanted her to be vulnerable and maybe they would have stayed together.

So do.

You think that it hurt less to her because maybe she didn't fully go there, so she dusted herself off.

Oh no, that's the myth about, I think that's the myth about avoiding attachment.

It hurt, hurts just as much, if not more.

But she's just stuffing it down.

She's just not allowing yourself.

Maybe out the problem.

That makes me feel so much better.

Thank you, Doctor Morgan.

OK.

And lastly, Samantha, do you have any alternative treatments to Bobby Cannavale's problem other than weed grass shots or how to navigate maybe being like, you know what, I'm not going to do it because like it tastes horrendous.

Yeah, this is to me, it's just a case of communication.

Yes, he should go talk to his doctor and you know, maybe make some improvements in his diet, etcetera.

Like probably get it checked out, whatever.

But also don't self abandoned like especially in the bedroom.

If you're doing something that you don't enjoy, don't do it.

It's just going to build resentment, right?

And don't be with somebody that is OK with you not enjoying yourself.

That's that.

That doesn't make any sense, right?

There's, there's just a lot going on in that dynamic there where it's, it's not a emotionally available secure relationship.

It's transactional.

Amazing.

Well, that was the episode.

Thank you so much.

Doctor Morgan, before you leave us, I've been listening to your podcast on a loop, which I highly, highly recommend, especially if you identify as a Carrie.

You have to listen to that three-part, kind of like episodes of mother wound, father wound in a child.

And then I just kept on going.

But I know that you're also working super hard on bringing some new things onto your podcast and also your business.

Is there anything that you want to tell our listeners to watch out for?

Lots of things coming in 2026, that's for sure.

The Empowered Secure Love program is still here.

You know, it's helped over 1000 women.

We have different ways that you can go through that program now.

We we really have something for everyone.

So I would say if you've listened to this and you're like, hey, I've got to get off the dating roller coaster, I need to be able to choose emotionally available partners, we would love to help you with that.

Amazing.

And yeah, just just lots coming out on the podcast that that's where you'll hear everything we're up to.

So yeah, just let's get Vulnerable Anywhere podcasts.

Are aired.

I will plug in the podcast, your website on your Instagram.

But thank you so much Doctor Morgan.

This has been so insightful.

Thank you for having me.

I really enjoyed this.

I love your show.

I, I love that you're doing this.

There's so much that we can learn when when we look at this series.

So thank you.

It's like a corrective emotional experience to go back and to process it.

So I, I love, love your work.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Doctor Morgan, hope to see you soon.

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Unjust like that.

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And don't forget our new segment this season.

He's not you Mr. Big.

If you have a love dilemma you won't answer by one of our in house experts, you can now submit directly through the form on my website.

Link is in the show notes.

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See you at our next therapy session.

I love y'all bye.