The Affair, the Double Standard & Why We Are So Over We Need Another Word for Over — S3E11 with Minaa B, Licensed Therapist
About This Episode
In Season 3 episode eleven of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV is joined by licensed therapist, author and podcast host Minaa B to unpack Sex and the City's "Running with Scissors." It's the episode where Carrie's affair with Big escalates from fancy hotels to plastic cups to his wife's apartment, Charlotte catches them red-handed, Natasha falls and chips her tooth chasing Carrie out, and Samantha nearly faints in a doctor's waiting room convinced she is about to receive very bad news.
What We Cover
Why women face a double tax when they cheat — once for betraying their partner, and once for betraying their gender
The shame spiral: why judgment doesn't stop affairs, it just drives them underground
Why Carrie giving up smoking for Aiden was always going to backfire — and what all-or-nothing thinking has to do with it
The dopamine of secrecy: why an affair can feel more alive than a healthy relationship, and what that's really telling you
Miranda as Carrie's moral anchor: why we choose certain friends to share things with, and what we're actually asking for
Big's radar theory: why men resurface the moment you start moving on, and the difference between wanting you and wanting the novelty
Natasha insisting Carrie come to the hospital: punishment, investigation, or the sisterhood acting on instinct?
Why women's friendships are built on emotional intimacy — and why that makes a female cheater's betrayal feel different
How to be a good friend to someone having an affair without compromising your own values
Should you tell your partner about an affair — and if so, how? Minaa's thoughtful, non-binary answer
STI stigma and the "it can't happen to me" mentality: why Samantha's denial is more common than we think
How to model healthy conflict resolution for children without exposing them to things they're not ready for
About Our Guest
Minaa B is a licensed therapist, author of Owning Our Struggles, and host of the This Feels Familiar podcast, which focuses on community care, boundaries and inter-family dynamics. She has been featured in the New York Times, Forbes and Oprah Daily. Subscribe to her Substack newsletter All the Hard Things and find her on social media at @Minaa_B. All links in the show notes.
Transcript
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I am your host, Isabelle Envy, and today we are recapping season 3, episode 11 of Sex and the City, Running with Scissors.
This is the episode where Carrie blurt the iconic, we are so over, we need another word for over. And for this very special episode, I am joined by Mina B.
Mina B is a licensed therapist, published author, host of the podcast, This Feels Familiar, and generally one of the clearest thinkers I have had on this show.
We discuss at length the double standard women face when it comes to cheating, how to best get out of such a sticky situation, and how to maybe be a friend to someone in such a situation without compromising your values.
I can't wait for you guys to check out what Mina had to say. But also, I'm curious, who from the listeners thinks that sandwich was really sexually harassing Miranda? Let me know!
See you on the other side!
Bye!
Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I am joined today by Mina B. She's a licensed therapist, author of Owning Our Struggles.
Her work focuses on community care, boundaries, and inter-family dynamics. She has been featured in several outlets, including New York Times, Forbes, and Oprah Daily. And I am super excited to have her on with us today.
Welcome, Mina.
Hi, Isabel. Thank you for having me.
It is absolutely my pleasure.
Mina is here today to discuss Season 3, Episode 11 of Sex and the City, Running with Scissors, which is an iconic episode because I feel it is when all comes to a bit of a head between Carrie and Big's affair at the end of the last episode.
And we see Carrie and Mixter Big's affair develop. We see how their affair goes from very fancy hotels in Crystal to city hotels and plastic cups.
And I have to say, when I first watched this episode to take notes for you, when I saw Carrie enjoying herself running behind Aidan's back and everyone's back to have her affair with Mr. Big, I found myself judging her.
But then when I saw her guilting herself and like torturing herself, I felt a lot of compassion for her.
My first question to you is like, do you think that that has to do with maybe how women are raised to police each other's sexual choices?
I think there's a lot of variables that take place in the difficult feelings that can arise when someone recognizes they're having an affair.
So one, the affair itself, right, is a way for them to understand that they are doing something that they feel like they should not be doing.
And they feel they shouldn't be doing it because they made an agreement to be in potentially a ethical, monogamous relationship. The actual definition of guilt is I did something bad, right?
So I do think there are times where we are holding ourselves accountable and we recognize we are doing something bad because it goes against the systems and the rules that we created in our partnership.
However, when you're having an affair, another feeling can arise where the enjoyment and the excitement also makes you feel guilty because you actually are taking pleasure in it.
There are times when people engage in an affair and they believe it's just going to be a one-time thing. So they say to themselves, I felt temptation. I felt whatever it is that they're...
Because I was lacking this need in my partnership, in that moment I acted on it. But they're actually surprised that they enjoyed acting on it because the affair is probably illuminating something that is deeply missing from their partnership.
But I also think what's very hard when it comes to navigating affairs in society is the duality of our emotions where I can love my partner and still make choices that hurt my partner.
A lot of people struggle with that because there's a belief system that if you love your partner, you would never do anything to harm that relationship.
Because humans are so complex and we do have these innate selfish desires for self pleasure, you can love your partner and also find so much pleasure in doing something such as having an affair because that affair is bringing some level of excitement
and joy and it's meeting a particular need. So I do think women often struggle with the duality of that because we are taught that being good means when we're in a relationship, that one person is supposed to fulfill our needs and how dear us find
someone else attractive, how dear us have desires or fantasies about someone else. And I think if we start to make space for recognizing the innateness of what it means to be human and the complexity around that, we can navigate these situations with
less judgment. So I'm not saying it means you have permission to go out and do affairs. I'm not saying that. But I think we use judgment as a way to mitigate affairs.
And that's not necessarily the best method because all that does is bring up shame. And if we have shame around it, we're not going to do the work to investigate why this affair actually means something to me in the first place.
I love that. And I think that you've also been very careful to say that as women, we are taught to love our partner and how dare we maybe find somebody else attractive.
And I do think that the stigma for women who cheat is different for men who cheat. Do you think that that has to do with the shame that maybe women are put through versus men?
Oh, absolutely. I think that there is a gender stereotype at play.
And I think it comes from the idea that women are supposed to be good women who submit to their husbands, they are homemakers, they're taking care of their family, and they're supposed to find pleasure in that. Right?
So when we do hear stories of women engaging in infidelity, I think it causes a major disruption because there's this standard idea of what a happy woman looks like and what the role of a woman is supposed to be.
So when she is not fitting that role, there can be a lot of judgment where I unfortunately do think in our culture, people expect men to cheat. So even though we demonize it, when it happens, it's like, well, I'm not shocked.
I'm not surprised because men cheat. We have a history of men cheating, and that's what men do. It's not okay.
It's not appropriate, but he's a man. Where if it's a woman, it's like, how dare she not be so happy at home being the wife, and the mother, and all of the different things she's supposed to be.
And I think it creates this huge dichotomy regarding how women are treated when they cheat versus how men are treated when they cheat.
Yeah.
And I think there's always kind of like the sisterhood comment that I'll drop on later, that is like, how could you do this to another woman that I don't think ever gets brought up with men.
But I find it interesting because the next scene is Carrie talking to Miranda about it. She's like, I need to tell you something, and like, I hope you don't hate me for it. And she comes out with it.
And she's like, listen, I'm having an affair with Mr. Big, and I've also started smoking, so feel free to delete me from your Palm Pilot or whatever form of blackberry they had back then.
And Miranda is a great friend and she says, give me a cigarette. And Carrie kind of puts on Miranda a lot and she's like, okay, what do you think? Do you hate me?
She's like, no, I don't hate you. She's like, okay, but you need me to yank me out of it. And she kind of puts it on Miranda to yank her out of the affair.
I'm curious to why you think that sharing it with Miranda could bring her maybe some more acceptance within herself. Because I think Miranda says like, what about Aiden? She's like, exactly.
You need to say things like that. What about Aiden? What do you think it is about her sharing it with Miranda but also saying, of course, I haven't told Charlotte who's about to get married.
What do you think that it is about that, that maybe makes us make peace with it before we allow ourselves to make peace with it?
So one, I think that a lot of it has to do with sometimes when we're doing something that we feel and we know is something that we probably should not doing.
And so in this context, I think Carrie is very aware that, again, she's in what is an ethical monogamous relationship. And so therefore she is breaching the contract and breaching the trust of her partner.
And I do think there are some people who feel like they need a support system to help them work through the internal struggle they're carrying. Right? So even when you say she brings up Aiden and she's like, yes, keep saying his name.
I think a lot of that has to do with this feeling of, I really need someone else to help me be grounded and help pull me out of this state of being that I'm currently in because I am so immersed, maybe in the dopamine that comes with the excitement
from cheating, because there's another layer to that, right? We're in hotels, we're doing all of these risky things and that brings up some adrenaline and it brings up some dopamine.
And then when that dopamine dies down, it's like, shoot, I really should not be doing this, right?
So someone like Miranda to really kind of drill it in you, like, remember Aiden, remember why you're in this relationship, remember why you chose this person.
Or there are times too where we need a friend to help us assess, well, are we actually in the wrong relationship? Right?
And so I do think that bringing it to someone was Carrie's way of one, recognizing I'm holding this thing that I'm beating myself up around, and then I have a lot of shame with.
So I am not the person that is going to do the internal work because I'm also the person who is doing the thing that I shouldn't be doing. So I need a third party, right?
So typically some people will go to their therapist with this, but you can also go to a friend if you feel like you have a friend that you know is going to hold a emotionally and psychologically safe space to say, you know what?
I love you despite what you're doing, and I'm here to help and provide you with support if that is what you need. And I think that's what we kind of see between Carrie and Miranda versus going to the friend who is getting married.
You might realize that this is probably a very delicate time. Do you really want to share this thing with someone who's about to also be in an ethical monogamous, who's already in one, but now about to take this next step of being married?
And so I think sometimes we just need another source in our lives to really help ground us and pull us out of that excitement that we're failing to really present reality to us. So let's talk about Aiden. Let's talk about why you're doing this.
Let's talk about Mr. Big. Let's talk about the things that's driving you to make a decision and figure out where we go from here.
And I think that's very common when women are having affairs. There's a lot of truths that maybe are being suppressed, that the fear is revealing. And you need someone to really do the work of helping bring it out of you.
And I think that's what we see with Carrie and Miranda in that scene.
Yeah, I think you also talk about this in your book where you talk a lot about maybe the community that is needed to get yourself through certain things, that sometimes they can be your family of choice.
And I think for Carrie, because obviously we don't have enough information about her family, these are indeed her family and counselors and in a way, moral north stars.
But there's a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you about this, because she also says she had quit smoking for Aiden, and now she's not only having an affair, but she's smoking again.
As a therapist, I'm very curious to know, what is it that sometimes we try so hard to not steer away from the good lane and being good, and everything that we're doing is trying to be the best version of ourselves, but then we get one thing wrong and
it makes it all the easier to say, you know what, fuck it. I'm eating all crap from now on. I'm smoking, I'm cheating, and I'm going to steal or whatever it is.
But I think a lot of that has to do with all or nothing thinking that a lot of people engaged in.
And so it's this process that in order for me to be good, I have to eliminate all of these things versus figuring out what habits are actually detrimental to my goals and my well-being and how do I either eliminate those habits or just minimize.
And I like to consider it like a sense of harm reduction that we talk about in the substance community, where there are people who have decided, I don't want to stop using drugs and I don't want to stop drinking.
But I'd rather engage in a harm reduction approach where instead of drinking every single day, I will minimize that to drinking maybe one time out the week because it's something that I really enjoy doing.
But I recognize when I do it to a certain extent, there is a detrimental impact, right? So I think there's a few layers here because one, I hear you saying she gave up smoking for Aiden.
And sometimes that can be where the issue lies, where it wasn't really my desire to give up drinking, but the relationship depended on it and my partner required it.
So I completely gave this thing up versus maybe I could have tried a harm reduction approach where I don't smoke every single day or I don't smoke a pack a day.
But if I know smoking is what I really, really want to do, is neglecting that and abandoning that, going to eventually bring up some issues in my relationship.
So it's kind of like all these areas where I feel like I might be being controlled, I'm letting loose in the affair. Because in order to be in this relationship with Aiden, it comes with these constraints. But to be with Mr.
Big, I can smoke. To be with him, I can drink. To be with him, I can fully be myself because he's okay with me being myself.
He's okay with the fact that I smoke a lot. Right? And I think there's this layer to it where one, we do have to recognize what are the things we're giving up and why.
That plays a huge role in how we can spiral into, I'm on this diet and I ate one cookie and now I'm eating the whole pack.
Right?
Because your mindset said in order to diet, you have to eliminate this thing altogether and the reality is you like how cookies taste. So if you like how cookies taste, why would you deprive yourself of something that plays a role in your joy? Right?
And so I do think that this all or nothing thinking is something that can cause us to spiral deeper when we do engage with it.
So it's like finally after a year of not smoking, now I'm smoking a whole entire pack because I missed it so much and I needed it so much and I haven't had a cookie in six months because I told myself eating cookies are bad.
And in order to be in this relationship, I can't eat cookies because my partner might judge me since I'm trying to lose weight. And now I have a whole pack of cookies in front of me and I just have to consume and consume and consume.
And a lot of that.
Do you think that? Because as I'm hearing you talk about this, I love the take that you're taking. But like I always thought there was some self-hatred of like, okay, now that I hate myself for this, I'm going to self-harm.
Do you think that there's a big component of that or it's like depending on the situation?
I do think it depends on the situation. I do think that there can be times where people are engaging in self-sabotage and they're utilizing these particular tools as a way to maybe handle a core wound.
And since I already feel bad about myself, I deserve this pain and suffering. So therefore, I'll just continue down this cycle. But I do think this is why context is so important in every scenario.
It really depends on what is driving that behavior because there's a difference between I truly enjoy this thing and I felt like I had to give it up to be accepted, versus I have such low self-worth that I'm going to participate in things that kind
of prove I'm not good enough anyway. So why try? Why try to be healthy? Why try to do the right thing if I have this perception that I mess up all the time?
And sometimes that narrative is created when we grow up in family environments where there's poor cohesion. And so you may have grew up with emotionally immature parents that put you down a lot.
Maybe you had difficult sibling relationships where you experienced a lot of bullying. So your self-worth was already formed in a way that was kind of weak from your familial foundation.
And then as you went on to create friendships and engage in romantic relationships, you were easily wounded by rejection because it kind of solidified this idea that I'm not lovable, I'm not good enough, I'm not worthy enough.
And so why even try to be better? Why even continue to try not smoking? I might as well just smoke the whole pack, right?
And so I do think that there are different ways this can come about. But I do think context around what's driving the behavior is very important.
Yeah, I think that's such a clear way to differentiate the two. And I don't think that I had seen it that clear before.
The other thing that Carrie says when she's talking to Miranda about this is like, do you think that he just wants me now because he can have me?
And I wanted to ask you the question of like, what do you think that it is that sometimes it does feel like it takes, especially for them, it feels like they have a radar where they're like, oh, she's moving on, let me remind her of my existence.
My two questions here ask like, what do you think it happens with some man that do have that, oh, now that she's gone, I want her back, but then it can be fleeting?
And do you think that that was Carrie's intuition coming in and maybe not giving so much value to him saying like, I want you now?
Yeah, I do think that it could be intuition and it might just be based on a pattern, based on things that you've witnessed and things that you recognize are happening in the relationship.
But when it comes to why do men or even people do this thing, there are so many different reasons. But I would say sometimes a lot of people struggle to, one, feel that they are worthy enough to have what they have.
So when you struggle with low self-worth, it's kind of like this self-fulfilling prophecy where I don't feel good enough.
And even though I found someone who loves me and cares for me, because I don't feel good enough, I engage in behaviors that sabotage the relationship that makes the person no longer interested in me without even realizing it.
And so that's more of like a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's driven by my low worth and it's driven by my low self-esteem. And I do think some men do struggle with their self-esteem.
And so when they do find something that feels good, and they find a woman that does care for them and love them, they may struggle with their own internal pain and low self-worth that they don't realize they're engaging in that self-fulfilling
prophecy of not really cherishing the thing, but instead engaging in behaviors that pushes the thing away. Because they don't necessarily know how to be attuned to that thing. So I think that's one of the things that can happen, right?
Now, unfortunately, I think there are other scenarios where there are cases where people enjoy novelty. And there's this perception that maybe love can be fleeting, or newness is the thing that brings joy, because it brings that dopamine.
Think about how we have phrases like the honeymoon phase. There are a lot of people who don't know how to... There are a lot of people who don't have relational skills to move past the honeymoon phase.
They only know how to be in the fun stage. We're enjoying each other's time. We're having great sex.
We're having spontaneous nights. But because I never learn things such as conflict navigation and how to repeal ruptures, once we are out the honeymoon phase and we really have to tackle real life issues, I realize I don't have the skills for that.
Another thing might be boundary differentiation where once all this excitement and stuff is outside of that, learning to be a unit while also honoring autonomy, I don't have the skills for that based off how I was raised or the relational patterns I
grew up around. Another thing could be the sense of competition and scarcity where I believe love is limited. I believe love is scarce. And so as a result of that, if I'm not getting all of the attention, it stirs up some internal self-esteem issues.
So when you see your partner being someone who's probably very extroverted and autonomous, it can feel like, well, why aren't they giving me all their praise and attention and why aren't they always around me? Right?
And so that can also bring up some sabotage in the relationship because a lot of men, I notice at least in my work, is that some men don't know how to move into the deeper stages of relationship.
It's like I first can do the work of dating because I maybe like the thrill of seeing who's attracted to me, who likes me enough to go on a date. And when I go on this date, we're just really getting to know each other. It's the surface level stuff.
We're going to the bar, we're having drinks, and once we start having sex, it's this great sex. But once it's time to really move deeper into intimacy, I don't really know how to talk about myself.
I don't really know how to ask my partner really core questions about their family or who they are. I don't know how to repair conflict, or at least my idea of conflict is you can't repair it. Once there is conflict, the relationship is over.
So I do find that that can happen too, and that's why novelty becomes a thing where it's like, all right, forget that, time for me to try someone new.
So I do think there are a plethora of reasons of why some men go through that feeling of the chase and once I get the thing that I want, I don't really honor it. I think a lot of them don't have the tools.
They just don't have the relational tools and some of them don't have the self-esteem to honor it. They want the novelty and the feeling that comes with it.
I'm guessing that it has to do a lot with the fact that society has not been very generous at letting men have a good relationship towards their emotions, but I can't help to think when you're talking about they don't know how to resolve conflict.
Do you think that a way that we can learn that is by maybe, because my parents always try to say keep all of their fights from me and my brother.
Do you think that it's maybe healthy for parents to show if it's a constructive and healthy way how they resolve conflict in front of their children?
I think it depends on what the conflict is about. Because there are times where children are exposed to things that they're not of a particular developmental stage to understand.
So if parents are arguing over infidelity, I would say I don't really think that if your child is not an adult, that's most likely something that they should not be exposed to.
But if you're arguing because mom asked dad to have dinner prepared and she came home, dinner wasn't even thought out. It's still frozen and she's really pissed off and she recognizes she just explodes in front of dad.
What mom is trying to express in that moment is I had a particular need and I feel really ignored. But I also want to show my children that we can get over the fact that the chicken is still frozen.
Right?
And so what we need to do is model to our children that one, arguments can happen, but we can repair arguments. We can repair arguments by engaging in active listening.
We can also repair arguments by one, making sure we respect each other even in the midst of being heated. So that looks like, what is your tone like? Are you screaming at each other or can you lower your tone?
The language that you're using. Are you cursing each other out and belittling each other and calling each other's names? Because that's not necessarily modeling even what healthy conflict looks like.
Because you can be angry at someone, but you do not have to dehumanize them in the process of being angry at them. So I do think that it can be modeled. But I do want to go back to what I was saying in regards to men not knowing.
I also want to just make sure I'm making it very clear that in adulthood, I do believe that, and this is for men or women, but just going back to that particular part, when we do recognize that we are replaying the same cycles in our lives, it is up
to us to say, I need to change this pattern. So yes, I was raised this way. Yes, this is what I was exposed to. It wasn't taught to me.
But I also want to say that we have choices in life. And so, we have to make active choices to say, I need to start doing things differently.
Because no, I wasn't raised with proper relational skills, and this is why it's showing up in my romantic relationships. But if that's where the sentence ends, that's going to be a problem.
So I do want to say, because I think sometimes too in our society, there's more accountability placed on women to learn how to do better. Where men still somewhat get away with their incompetence.
When it's like, you still have opportunities to grow, right? And so I wanted to add that layer too, because I don't want it to sound like I'm necessarily making excuses for men by saying they don't have the relational skills.
But I do want to also say that men have choices in changing how they show up in relationships. And I think women do have to pay attention to that part.
I love that, because I think if anything, I was making excuses, but you're absolutely right.
At the same time, the other two storylines, Charlotte is planning her wedding. She's been a bit of a britsila about it. And Samantha goes to a bar alone and she meets Tom Remy, who is the male version of her.
And they exchanged three sentences. And then he's like, oh, my place is just around the corner. They're about to sleep together.
When he says very openly like, okay, when did you last get checked? Which I think is very interesting because in movies, we never see kind of like that awkward moment where maybe two potential sexual partners take the time to be like, are we safe?
Rarely do we see anybody pull a condom or have that conversation. And Samantha gets really nervous. She's like, what do you mean?
No, I always practice safe sex. And she basically avoids the question. And we quickly find out it is more because she's scared of what she might find out.
And my next question to you is, why do you think that Samantha was in such denial about the risks of her sex life? And what do you think of some people that maybe think that just because they're not getting tested, they don't have anything?
I think it goes with this culture that STDs are synonymous with promiscuous behavior.
I think there are people in society who believe that the only people at risk for developing any kind of STI are people who are engaging in extremely risky behaviors, prostitution, sex work, things like that.
So I think they've compartmentalized and excluded themselves from a particular group in society because they've been told that STIs are associated with riskiness and they perceive themselves as, well, I'm having carefree, consensual sex.
I'm not necessarily engaging in behaviors the way some other people might engage in behaviors. And so I'm able to separate myself from that group and I've associated that group with this particular disease. Right?
I mean, it goes back to, I think, way before the 90s, think of the HIV epidemic where that was only associated with being gay. Right?
And so if somebody had HIV, it was you must be gay, not realizing heterosexual people can also be at risk for HIV and carriers of HIV. So I think a lot of people have this internal bias about certain demographics in society.
So I do think that's probably one thing she was experiencing where it's like, well, no, of course, I, this put together woman, can't possibly be at risk of having something because I am not like other people in society. Right?
And I think that's a stigma that is very dangerous, but that's how that plays out.
I think another thing is that a lot of people can also struggle with, I would say, I'm going to try to articulate this clearly, but I think in that moment, too, there are some people who kind of don't realize themselves, the ways they may have
necessarily neglecting their health or the way that they are, I guess, just engaging in certain behaviors. Right?
And so, what I'm trying to say here is, yes, this is a woman who has sex and she's not even associating sex with, I could also potentially have an STI, because the men that I'm having sex with, too, couldn't possibly have that.
So, now, this is another demographic where it's like, these might be very well put together men who wear suits and look a particular way. Why would I be at risk having sex with these men?
So, that's another way we have these internal biases that can manifest in that moment. And then, the last thing I will say is sometimes it can bring up shame.
It can bring up shame, and I think that shame kind of highlights a lack of education around bodily autonomy and how it is also associated with our health, right? And so, you can have the sex that you want.
You can have the one-night stands that you want, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't be getting tested.
But a lot of people, unfortunately, I think when it comes to sex education, a lot of people just don't have specific knowledge around that.
And I think that could be happening in that moment too, where she just never understood the value of recognizing you. If you are having casual sex with different partners, you should always be getting tested.
I think it's easy to move through society with this, it can't happen to me mentality, which is why people take risks all the time, because there's this perception that even though it happens to other people, it's not going to happen to me, because
I'm me, and I make XYZ choices in life, I'm a good person, so I think there's some morality there around our moral perception of ourselves, where I'm a good person, I'm a hard working person, I only associate myself with certain kinds of people, so
how would I possibly be at risk for that? And I think that could also play a role, because we do understand the socioeconomic status of these women in the show, we also understand the demographics that they tend to be around, and so you have these
I completely agree.
After that scene, we see Carrie and Big going to another city hotel, and then a Japanese businessman approaches Carrie, and he's like, Oh, I've seen you here before. How much? And she gets annoyed because she's like, I'm leaving.
This is so annoying.
The Japanese man confused me for a prostitute, and she is storming out of the hotel when she bumps into Charlotte, and then Big comes out and Charlotte discovers and red-handed and we go to Charlotte and Carrie, packing Charlotte's apartment because
she's moving in with Trey after they get married, and Charlotte is having this conversation with Carrie where she says, How could you do that? You're the other woman and have you not thought about Natasha?
You just think about her like the idiot wife. And she says to her, have you thought what she would feel if she found out? And she's like, Of course I think about that.
And she says, No, you only think about what would happen to you if she were to find out. And he took bows and he broke them, which is the only thing that she says about Mr. Big.
She kind of makes it all about what Carrie is doing to another woman, which goes back to what I mentioned before that I think when a woman is having an affair, it's double the wrong because you betray your boyfriend, but you also are betraying women.
What do you think about that?
So I think there are numerous things that are happening. I do agree that there is a double tax involved where, like you said, not only are you engaging in this affair, which is an act of betrayal, but you're also betraying the woman.
And that is very, very loaded. I do think that that is a very common thing to bring up both sides and to put a lot of pressure on the woman who is engaging in the affair.
And, you know, in my work as a therapist who has worked with clients in these dynamics, I think there are a few things that I have recognized that why this happens very commonly in society.
One, when we think of sisterhood and how women really engage with other women based off emotional connections, I think we form these bonds that's rooted in such deep intimacy that there's this feeling of betrayal when we hear that women are doing
something that's against... I'll use the phrase girl code, right? But I'll just use the phrase girl code, because I'm sure a lot of people understand what that means.
Where men don't necessarily bond through emotional intimacy, they bond through social activity, right? So when you already remove the emotional part and we're just really engaging over sports or beer or work, right?
There's also this lack of accountability, but there's also this lack of feeling as if I could be betrayed by this person because the bond really isn't emotional. Where when women form bonds, our bonds are deeply emotionally tied.
So as a result of those bonds being emotionally tied, there's this perception that we have a particular rule and code because we're supposed to keep each other emotionally safe and psychologically safe since our relationships are built on emotional
Yeah.
Right?
So I think that plays a role in it. Another thing that I think plays a role in it, and this might be a very controversial, unpopular opinion, I'm going to admit, but I do think a lot of it also has to do with control.
I think women, going back to what I said earlier, the narrative that men cheat, men cheat.
And so since people know men cheat and they have this internal feeling that men have the capability of cheating, if we create these societal rules that make women feel bad about themselves for participating in the cheating, we may be able to minimize
the cheating that happens. Because think about the language, when a woman is having an affair, she's the side chick.
But when a man is engaging in an affair and the woman is married, there's no term to describe the man even though he's not her primary partner. Right? And I put that in quotation marks.
But the woman, she's the side chick. She's even the whore or the hoe. There's this derogatory language to place on the woman.
And I find that we believe that shame is a method that can make people change. And I do believe that at some point in history, because I was birthed into a world with these terms, right? So I don't know when this started.
But I do believe that at some point in history, there was this perception that if we make women feel bad for engaging in infidelity with men, it will decrease their desire to engage in infidelity because they know if they get caught, they're going to
have the double penalty. Not only are you in this affair, but now women are going to come out and shame you for being this awful person. Also think about it in the context of female friendships.
I have heard many stories of men who their male friends know they're having affairs, where when a woman, she is with her female friends, she's engaging in an affair, they cut her out, they ice her out.
She's ostracized from the friend group, which is why a lot of women carry this in so much secrecy, because there's also a different way the women are going to treat her, where the men are like, all right, bro, whatever.
And even some of them may not agree, but they recognize, I don't agree with your choice, but I'm not going to necessarily terminate the relationship.
But I am going to be vocal about the fact that I don't think you should be cheating on your wife, where a lot of women struggle with that duality.
So if I believe you shouldn't be doing this, that also should mean I can't be your friend, because we have different values and belief systems, where there are some people who can recognize your values don't appeal upon my values.
And so I just want you to know we have different values and beliefs, but I'm not going to withdraw my love from you because you're doing something I perceive as bad.
And I think that's also the difference in why women hold on to this in secrecy, right? But I also think that's why we see these narratives, just because women form bonds in an emotional manner, and so it feels like an emotional attack.
It's a breach against that emotional trust. But I also think the other layer to it is these terms are derogatory for a reason, and it's because we want women to feel bad.
And if they feel bad, it might minimize their desire to participate in the infidelity, so that we can get men to finally stop cheating.
Yeah. Controversial or not, I think you've hit bullseye. I completely see that.
I have another question because we see how Carrie is dealing with herself, and I think it might tie in with the shame that she feels. We see her back at home with Aiden.
They're kissing, making out in her bed, and he's doing this noise, and she gets really annoyed, and she kind of gets like snippy and very mean towards him.
What do you think happens behind the scenes as the female cheater that she is mean towards Aiden? Do you think that is her judging herself and maybe feeling unworthy, or is she just dealing with a lot?
I think she could be dealing with a lot. I don't think, when there's an affair happening, I don't think we can always pin it down to one particular issue at play.
Most of the time, there are a multitude of things happening in the moment, and when you see the woman such as Carrie with her actual partner and things arising, there could be a multitude of reasons. As to why these issues are arising.
It could be that in that moment, she's really just annoyed at his actual behavior, and it has nothing to do with other than the fact that that behavior is annoying to her.
It can also maybe do with the fact that there's this parallel process happening where when I'm with Aiden, and I'm doing the same exact thing with Mr. Big, Mr.
Big reacts in a way that turns me on, where Aiden reacts in a way that deeply disturbs me and bothers me. So my annoyance level is starting to increase because I'm having these similar interactions at the same time. So if I was with Mr.
Big last night and we did this, now I'm with Aiden today and I'm trying to do it with him, you might start to think about Mr. Big wouldn't do this. Mr.
Big doesn't react this way. So that's one common thing that could happen.
And another layer to it could be that since Carrie is in this stage of internal conflict, it could be both things are happening where she's carrying so many thoughts and feelings in herself about the relationship, her mood and tolerance is changing.
So it's possible Aiden has done this in the past and it never bothered her, but because she is in a difficult internal state, that can impact her mood.
And so she might find herself snapping at things she normally tolerated or thought was normal, but that might just have to do with the internal conflict is now impacting her mood and her stability.
And so now natural scenarios and situations are just impacting her in a different way because she's more angry than she normally is. She's more depressed than she normally is.
The confusion she's experiencing is also impacting her sense of stability in the moment.
And so mood fluctuations are very normal when you're in this difficult internal state where there's confusion, where there's ambivalence and you're dealing with two completely different people, and you're holding up secrecy.
Secrecy can also be very heavy on the body, right?
And so, and then you have to add in the dynamics of not only am I dealing with secrecy, I have friends who one is mad at me, the other one is not mad at me, but I also feel some shame and judgment, and I opened up to her, and even though she's not
judging me, I'm judging myself. And so just remembering too that our moves can change when we are just dealing with a variety of issues at once.
Yeah. Okay. Then we get to the end of the episode where Carrie and Big are at Mr.
Big's apartment, and Carrie's just like, I have gotten to the worst of the worst because I was having sex with my ex-boyfriend in his apartment that he shares with his wife.
And he leaves her there, and Natasha walks in on Carrie, and Natasha tries to go running after her. And Carrie's just like trying to outrun her, but very poorly.
So Natasha falls, breaks her tooth and breaks her lip, and then insists on Carrie coming with her to the hospital. So she's the one that calls Mr. Big.
I don't know if you remember this scene, but I always found it fascinating that Natasha was like, no, no, you're coming with me to the hospital.
Do you think that that is part of the sisterhood that we have embedded in us, that even if she is a woman that is sleeping with my husband, she is a woman that will take me and keep me safe?
My perception is that when the woman gets caught by the woman, sometimes there is this perception that you own me now, because this is your fault.
My tooth being chipped is your fault, so now you have to go through this process with me, and I'm viewing it as punishment.
And it's interesting because there are some people who might view that as an act of kindness, where it's like you actually want her to be the person who goes with you to the hospital during this difficult time.
Wouldn't you want a close confidant by your side during this time? And wouldn't you want separation between you and this woman in this moment?
So I do think there are times where some woman might feel like this is your payback, this is how I'm going to punish you, because technically you're at fault.
I wouldn't have been chasing you if you weren't here, and so now you have to accompany me, and I'm making it mandatory that you do it, because you should already feel bad about my chipped tooth, you should already feel bad that you're cheating, and
so now I'm going to drag you through this process, so that you can continue to feel bad about yourself. So I think that's one layer.
Now in some cases though, what you're speaking to can also happen, where there are some women, and this goes back to what we talked about earlier, right?
Going back to that shame and that self-hatred and that self-sabotage, where I hear stories of women who are very jealous of the other woman, and so she wants to be in the same space with her, because she wants to kind of investigate, what is it about
you that makes him want you? And so I want you to come with me to the hospital because I want to be in the space with you. Who are you? What makes you so special to him?
Why is he choosing you and not choosing me? Because I am his wife, and so how dare he step out on me?
But maybe her self-esteem is so low, she perceives it as he's cheating because I'm so broken, I'm so unworthy, she's making his cheating a personal attack.
And sometimes that personal attack can also look like if she already has low self-esteem, she might actually admire the other woman. Right? And so that might look like I want to be around her so that I can kind of investigate things about her.
Right? So that could be one layer.
And I think going back to the concept of, again, dealing with low self-esteem and hatred, it could be a scenario where she feels like I have no choice but to have her around me in this moment because I do need nurture and I do need care.
And I'm going to use this situation to get that out of her because I also feel like she should be responsible for giving it to me in that moment because she's the one who hurt me.
So now she should hold herself accountable by acting as the close confidant and giving me the emotional support that I need because it's her payback, but also it's how she should hold herself accountable in this moment.
Yeah, I love that. I had never, well, I love that. I had never thought about it like that.
But then we get the message that the affair is really over. It's when Carrie says, we're so over. We need another word for over.
So maybe I'd like to ask you what your advice be for the girls on this episode.
I think for Samantha, I'm very curious to know because I think she has such a meltdown when she has to go through doing the HIV test and STDs and she faints when she sees that the doctor is taking her to the small room, which is allegedly where they
take you to tell you that you are HIV positive. Do you think that she judged herself when faced with her sexual choices and what that could mean in terms of the result of the test?
I think so. I think that's very common when a person develops an STI to judge yourself in that process, to believe that you did something wrong, you did this to yourself, you did something wrong, you did this to yourself.
It's very common to kind of put all the blame on you. You should have asked questions, you should have gotten tested a long time ago, you should have done all of these things.
I think that's just a common human reaction when we're faced with a very hard truth. It's easy to pick ourselves apart, whether it's about an STI or something else.
I'm sure a lot of people have scenarios in their lives where they're like, I could have done something differently, why didn't do something differently?
And so I think sometimes when we are in a scenario or a predicament where we're being faced with the truth or potentially being faced with the truth, because she didn't even know what the truth was in that moment, but she's creating these scenarios
in her head. And I think those scenarios in her head probably were just overwhelming. And I would say the other part is the fear, right?
Because I also think at the end of the day, there's a lot of fear associated with thinking that you could potentially have an infection or a disease or things like that. And so I think it's natural to be very afraid of finding out what the truth is.
Yeah. Okay. For Charlotte, I'm very curious, given how you feel about the community that we choose to be maybe our family around us.
How would you think that you can be a better friend to someone who is like a sister to you that is doing something as wrong as cheating with a married man on her boyfriend?
The first thing that I would say is to do your best to really listen through empathy and compassion. And I know that sounds very hard for some people.
But I do believe that when a friend is coming to you to tell you about this thing, that really is destroying them or it's something that is really difficult in their lives, they're looking for support and they're probably looking for an out. Right?
And so what does it look like for you to maybe focus on how to be supportive to your friend? One, that can look like being a truth teller. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have to agree with your friend's behavior.
But how can you kindly and empathetically be honest about what you feel versus brutally honest?
So when people are brutally honest, it's I want to tear you down and I want you to feel shame and I want you to feel bad about this thing versus saying, you know what, I'm really not okay with this being your choice.
But I do want you to know that if you can fight in me, this is what I feel about your decision. It's not something I approve of. It's not something I feel okay with.
But if it is something that you are trying to change, I'm here to support you through that process. But this is how I feel I can support you.
Now there might be other scenarios where a friend might reveal to you she's having an affair and she doesn't want to change that. So I encourage you to also ask yourself, what do I have the bandwidth to give this friend?
And that might also look like having a conversation and saying, listen, this goes against my values. It makes me feel very uncomfortable. So I do just want you to know, I don't really want to hear about your affair.
And I hope you can understand that. If you want to talk about your affair, if you need support around your affair, I think a different friend or a therapist or just someone else from your community can best support you around that.
Because I do want you to know that this doesn't feel good to me and I don't feel like I can be your support system or be someone who engages in having conversations around this topic with you because it's something that really does bother me, right?
So it's okay to be firm in your truth, but I do think sometimes we think the best way to change a behavior is to shame and condemn a person. And there's enough research to show that that does very, very little. It keeps them stuck.
And so what does it look like for you to honor your truth while also being respectful to your friend? And what does it look like to be empathetic and compassionate, especially when they are actually trying to get out of the affair?
I love that. I think that's a very good reminder to many people.
For Carrie, I want to ask you the question of, you know, at the end of the episode, she goes back to Aiden and she says, like, I finally found my way home and it looks like she might keep it to herself.
Do you think that it's immoral to maybe hide from your partner if you've entertained an affair, to not tell them because, like, you're back there and, like, you want to work through it and you understand that it was just about you?
Or do you think that we owe it to our partner to be completely honest?
So in a relationship where there is ethical monogamy and you have disclosed to your partner, that is a choice that you are making.
There are partnerships where people have expressed that because this is what we want, there is a breach around that, I want to know.
So I do believe that if it's already been discussed in your relationship, the type of relationship that you want to have, if there were ever a breach in that, then in that moment, I would suggest bringing it up because it was already discussed in
advance that there are certain things that you do want to know. There are times where people will say, if you ever are having doubts about our relationship, I want to know.
So even if the person didn't actually step out, there are times where people are saying, this is what I want from that relationship, and so what does it look like to do that?
I will say that in other cases, sometimes I suggest people working with a therapist so that they can get tools on how to bring this to their partner. I do think how it is revealed can be very detrimental.
And so I will say if you are feeling inclined to share this, or if you recognize, I'm struggling with a lot of guilt, I'm struggling internally, I can't sleep at night, there might be signs that you do want to share, but you might need some tools on
how to share it. And I would suggest bringing it to a therapist, someone who can one, help you process the affair, but also give you some tips and guidance, or even have a family session, to disclose that the affair is happening.
So those are what my recommendations would be, just because I do think that betrayal can be very damaging to the body. And so the person on the receiving end can go through many different stages, from receiving and hearing that the betrayal happened.
And so I do think having tools in place to disclose that the betrayal happened can be very important.
OK. Then there's Miranda's storyline that was a bit silly with a sandwich, that if you haven't watched the episode, I think we can skip her advice. So that was the episode, Minaa.
I would really love for you to tell our listeners where to find you, what you're working on. And I highly recommend for everybody to check out your book as well.
Thank you. Well, you can order a copy of my book, Running Our Struggles, wherever books are sold. And you can continue to learn from me by listening to my podcast, This Feels Familiar, which is available on all podcast platforms.
You can also subscribe to my newsletter on Substack, All the Hard Things. And you can find me on social media at MinaB.
Thank you so much, Minaa. I'll plug all of that also in the show notes so that people can find you. Thank you.
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of On Just Like That. We Found Therapy. If you loved it, follow the podcast, leave a five-star review, and send this episode to someone who needs it.
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I love y'all. Bye.
