Golden Showers, Power Dynamics & The Yes/No/Maybe List — S3E2 with Calandra Balfour, Killing Kittens

About This Episode

In Season 3 episode two of And Just Like That… We Found Therapy, host Isabel MV is joined by therapist and Killing Kittens in-house sex expert Calandra Balfour to unpack Sex and the City's "Politically Erect." It's the episode where Carrie's politician boyfriend asks her to pee on him in the shower, Charlotte discovers the man she wants at a party has already been claimed by the woman who brought him, Miranda does a pros and cons list on Steve and realises love is the only item that counts, and Samantha dates a very short man with extremely big dick energy.

What We Cover

• Is power actually what makes someone sexually attractive — or is it really confidence?

• The connection between a healthy sex life and being a good leader (Samantha for mayor, basically)

• How to introduce a kink to a partner you're already sleeping with — the Yes/No/Maybe List explained

• Why powerful men so often want to be submissive in the bedroom — and who's really in control

• Carrie's alternative offers to the golden shower request: how to decline a kink while staying open

• Why pros and cons lists in relationships always backfire — and what Miranda was actually missing

• Wanting what you can't have: why Charlotte found the recycled dates party guy more attractive the second someone else claimed him

• The politics of desire: how we evaluate partners in the first few seconds before our brain even catches up

• Samantha and the short man — how she handled it, why it worked, and what "tall leggy whore shop" has to do with it

• Why Carrie writing the whole thing in her column was petty, justified and absolutely the right call

• New this season: He's Not Your Mr. Big — send your love dilemmas to Isabel on Instagram @wefoundtherapypod

About Our Guest

Calandra Balfour is a therapist and in-house sex expert at Killing Kittens — a women-led, sex-positive events community with 25 years of history and a global presence. She leads workshops on female desire, power dynamics and conscious sexuality. Killing Kittens hosts weekend retreats in manor houses, intimate cruises along the Riviera, Monaco F1 and Singapore, plus a members-only box at the O2 Arena. Find everything at KillingKittens.com — all links in the show notes.

Transcript

Bonjour, Boundary Babes, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. This week's episode is super spicy. I am joined by Calandra Balfour, in-house sex expert of Killing Kittens.

We discuss all things politics and relationships, how to navigate kinks and overcoming awkward situations in the wild scary world that dating is. Let's get into it.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy. I am your host, Isabel Envy, and I am super excited to be joined today by Calandra Balfour.

Calandra is a therapist, an in-house sex expert at Killing Kittens, where she leads workshops on female desire, power dynamics and conscious sexuality. Her work sits in the intersection of psychology, pleasure and emotional agency. Welcome, Calandra.

Thank you so much for that wonderful introduction, Isabel.

Thank you for having me here.

It's my pleasure. And for those of you who don't know, Killing Kittens is a women-led sex-positive community, an event organizer with major in-person hubs in London, New York and LA.

But they're also going to go on more experiences that may even take you to the seas. Today we're here to discuss Season 3, Episode 2 of Sex and the City, Politically Erect.

So I'm very excited to have you here for this one, Calandra, because it's all about kinks.

Yeah, yeah. And thank you. What great homework to have to do to revisit Sex and the City.

And I'm definitely going to get all of the seasons and watch it again, because it's great. It just hasn't even dated or aged.

No, it's just sometimes politically incorrect in a very refreshing way, because everything is so woke and scared of offending somebody these days that it gets boring. So it's a great rewatch.

But we get introduced in the episode to Carrie and Bill's relationship. They've been together for three weeks, and they seem to be having a great chemistry. They are both doing their thing.

She is channeling her best Jackie Kennedy look, and he's doing his City Controller stuff, which I research. Apparently, a City Controller is kind of like the CFO of the council. Sounds very boring.

But after we get this snippet of their relationship, the girls are at brunch talking about the fact that Carrie is dating a politician. And they're talking about how he has the power thing going on, and how power is super sexy.

So my first question to you is, do you think that sexual attraction comes from power? And do you think that this is true more or less on women and men?

Yeah, that was such an interesting question, very thought-provoking. And I think the quick answer is that everybody is different.

And one of the expressions that's very popular or used in the kink community is, my kink isn't necessarily your kink, and that's OK. And it's abbreviated to MK, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, wow.

And I can't remember the exact things, but there's lots of them.

Yeah.

I think it just varies from person to person. I think historically it may have been, but I think that's definitely something to do with where women used to be. You know, they would rely on a partner to provide for them.

Yeah.

They bring up children, all of that stuff.

But take that away. I think it's just not really a part of attraction. I think some people are attracted to it.

Yeah.

I don't think that is the thing that makes you attracted to somebody.

I mean, I think that I'm definitely attracted to somebody that feels powerful in their position, like somebody with a lot of drive.

And I think that in the same way, we hear more and more that maybe very powerful women struggle to date because some men find them masculating or whatever that may be, which I thought was an interesting thing to bring into this.

But I'm happy to hear that things are changing from your point of view.

I think that definitely is. I think people like to be turned on in their brain, you know? They need to be cognitively turned on or challenged, you know, in their thought.

They want somebody who's interesting. And, you know, I think definitely being in awe of somebody is part of sexual attraction. But whether that necessarily comes from power, I'm not sure, you know?

When you actually described what you're attracted to, I would say that that's more confidence, you know?

And I think lots of people are very confident in who they are, but they might not be in a very powerful position in their job or professionally, but they know what they are, they know what they're doing, and they're on a path to go and get it,

Yeah.

No, I think that makes sense. But I think it's very interesting how now the girls' conversation turns a lot into like how powerful men may or not be better or worse leaders, depending on how good they look or how like healthy of a sex life they have.

Because Samantha is saying that good looks make for great leaders. And I quote, look what happened with Nixon. Nobody wanted to fuck him, so he fucked everyone.

So my next question.

That's such a great line.

It is. As a therapist, how connected do you think that having a healthy sex life and being a good leader is? Like, do you think that normally people who are content with that aspect tend to be better co-workers, superiors, leaders?

Absolutely.

Absolutely. So I know that Killing Kittens and MSL, the founder of Killing Kittens is also runs a group called Sisterhood for Female Founders and Women in Business, business women.

And with her, we have done a couple of courses and talks, saying from the boardroom, bedroom to boardroom, or boardroom to bedroom. I think it's bedroom to boardroom.

And the idea that if you are sexually fulfilled, and I think this particularly applies to women, I think when women are in touch with their sexual energy and how powerful it is, women are unstoppable, really unstoppable.

And so there's definitely that aspect. There's also another, various other techniques that I teach women to connect to their sexual confidence, which enhances all aspects of their life.

And, you know, looking at Sex and the City, you know, look at Samantha. I mean, that woman should be in politics, really. And it starts, it starts, you know, you can say, oh, it's the way she walks in heels and whatever and looks great.

But it's not. It's the way that she carries herself in those things. And you know that she's having a great sex life and all of the orgasms.

She's the one that should be the city controller. Well, no, she should be the one. She should be the mayor, basically, shouldn't she?

Yeah.

It's a shame because later in the episode, she says that she doesn't believe in the Republican Party or the Democratic Party. She just believes in parties.

She believes in parties?

And I would vote for her. Okay.

And then after this conversation where they're talking about, quote unquote, politics, Miranda and Carrie are walking, and Miranda's confiding in Carrie about the fact that Steve asked her to go steady, and she's not quite sure about how to tell him,

like, maybe I just want to see if there's something better out for me. And then Carrie says, well, what you need to do is do the pros and cons list, and Miranda says, that's right, I just don't know how to be political in relationships.

Which turns into Carrie's column of the week, which is, can there be sex without politics? Which leads me to my next question. What role do you think politics, any kind, play in desire and intimacy?

Oh, gosh, I think this is probably what a huge question, and can be translated on so many different levels.

You know, I mean, I think by our very nature, you know, we have such strong genes of like, survival of fittest, attraction.

I think there is politics in the way that you're saying it at this moment, and the way that it was with Carrie and Miranda is kind of inbuilt into us.

I think the politics goes on without us even realizing, you know, sexual attraction happens in the first few seconds when we're still cognitively absorbing somebody, but we've already made a decision in our bodies have already made a decision.

And I think that is all due to politics, you know, I think our genes and biologically, we've already established whether their immune system is a good match to ours, whether we find the sexually attractive, whether they'd be a good mate, I think

physically even before any of the other stuff. So I think it's definitely a part of there, whether we have any control over it, whether it's right or wrong, I'm not so sure.

I mean, I think the evaluating thing, the Miranda does on which Carrie advises is not a good idea.

No, that is so productive.

Yeah. I mean, I think obviously it has to happen when you first start dating somebody, but she's had a relationship with her guy for ages. They've already been before, they've been backwards and forwardsing.

So I think when you start to see somebody, a little bit of an evaluation to make sure that you are aligned in your values and interests, okay, great. But an evaluation in the relationship is definitely something I steer clients away from.

Yeah.

The moment you go into a comparison, you will find negatives. And if you focus on the negatives, then you're going to find things that are wrong. Yeah.

And it's hard.

I think something as subjective as love and partnership to have to be so mathematical about it and be like pros and cons, whichever is longer wins, I do think is extremely reductive. But after that, Samantha is at a bar.

She feels great about herself because there's this guy sitting next to her, who's hitting heavily on her and she's feeling so great about herself until the guy stands up to leave after they agree to go out on a date and he basically reaches to like

here. So he's very short and she just gets like her wind knocks out of her sails.

And after that, Carrie invites all the girls to a fundraiser event, which Charlotte is super psyched about because she's going to treat this event as a speed dating event of her own. So we are at this fundraiser event for Bill Kelly.

And Charlotte is just like eager to meet her future husband. She meets this guy who seems very kind of like, all right, plain vanilla, good enough for Charlotte, until she finds out that he's spoken for. And then she gets completely deflated.

I'm very curious.

I think he's meet my fiance, I love that.

Yes, and that has happened to me. And it's like, because he didn't have a ring, you didn't quite know, or like, oh, it's my girlfriend's dog, it's not my arm. I'm like, great, I've just lost like an hour.

I'm very curious to know though, does this ever happen at the Killing Kittens parties, knowing that the concept of the party tends to be very kind of like exploratory and no strings attached, but like, do you see that happen?

Yeah, yeah, I do. So I know that, you know, there's a couple of things that go on at a sex party.

You know, first of all, you want to, you want to meet people and just hang out with people because it, you know, just as you would in any party, you know, you want to talk to people and have a chat and find your little buddies for the night.

But that might not always translate to wanting to have sex with them or them wanting to have sex with you.

And also people go to a sex party with different ideas about what they want, you know, so I know that at KK, you know, it is a female led party, so single men can't go. It's just single women and couples.

And lots of couples are either looking to just play with a woman or, you know, or only looking to play with a couple.

So I definitely do see the, you know, they'll be chatting, getting on, you know, they're obviously vibing in some way, shape or form.

And the girl and the couple might be like, oh, anyway, we're going to go upstairs now because we're, you know, we're looking for a couple and not just a girl on her own. So see you later. Oh boy.

It would suck to be that girl alone.

You'd be like, oh.

Yeah. And it also works the other way round, where, you know, they'll be talking to a couple and it's all on. And it actually happened to a friend of mine who came to a KK party and, you know, they were really getting on with another couple.

And my friend was like, yeah, come on, let's go. And she was like, I kind of didn't want to play with a guy, just a girl, or we were looking more for just a guy, just interested in your partner, not you, sorry.

Do you feel like going back to politics, there's a lot less politics in how those conversations go in Killing Kittens Parties, it's just because it's all more out on the table.

So you're like, actually we were looking for just a girl, or you're not the couple that we're interested in.

Yeah, I think there is. And I think with the advent of dating apps, I think that everybody has become so much more fluent in being able to express that.

I mean, I know girlfriends who are having sex in the late 90s, who would have sex with somebody because they didn't know how to say no, or it was just too awkward, or people that would end up staying in a relationship.

And they're like, how am I going to dump this guy? Do you know, it's easier to just be unavailable and then just hope that they get bored and just don't contact him again.

I think I remember telling somebody that I was going to work on a cruise and going away for six months because I didn't want to say I wasn't interested in them. Oh, wow.

That reminds me of when Chandler moves to Yevon to break up with Janine or whatever her name was.

But I think these days people go on, they meet people online, they vibe in the messages and then they meet online and they meet in real life and then people have become quite good at going, I'm really sorry, I don't think there's sparks there or I

don't think the chemistry is there. Really lovely to meet you or maybe we can meet again as friends. I think people have become quite fluent at this. And I think people are quite...

More emotionally fluent or dating fluent.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I mean, I have ChatGPT do most of those awkward conversations because I'm like, oh!

Okay, but after the party, Carrie and Bill get home and Bill managed to raise six grand. So he's really in the mood. They have sex.

He's got a hard on.

Yes, nothing gets a powerful man going like money.

So then they have a conversation that I actually love.

And I think this was kind of like something that I burned in my brain when I was watching this, probably when I was still a virgin and in high school, being like, oh, that seems like such a healthy way to ask, is everything that we're doing okay with

you? Is there anything that you want that I'm not providing you? Is there anything else that you would want to introduce to our sex life? And Carrie's like, no, everything's great.

What about you? And this is where he asks for her to pee on him in the shower. And just for this, I'm wearing my golden trousers for the golden shower moment.

First question. Do you think that Bill was setting this up just to get to ask Carrie to pee on him?

Probably.

Do you think that that is because this is like 2000s or do you think this still happens?

I think it absolutely still happens. And I would actually suggest it to clients who were wondering about how to broach something to their partner. I think that's a perfect way.

Do it. Ideally, listening to what their partner also would like is a reciprocal thing. But yeah, I think one of the hardest things is how do you introduce things or kinks into a relationship when they haven't been there before?

How do you say, actually, can you tie me up and spank me, please, if it's never been done before? Or how do you say, can we use a strap on? Or how can you say, please, can you be on me?

Yeah.

I remember once I had that conversation and I regretted it. I was like, let me be the grown up that is going to be like, oh, is there anything that you want that is not on the menu that you like in the menu?

And I really, really regretted opening up that kind of warms.

Why? What was on the menu?

That's a tale for another time.

Oh, come on, just a little bit.

He basically, I can't, I can't bring myself back. I still see that sometimes. But it was not, I was like, why did I listen to Carrie?

That is a conversation that you should only have when you're ready to listen to the answer. And I was not ready. But why do you think that, sorry, go on.

Yeah, well, I think this is what you do with that information as well.

So one of the things that I have taught in KK workshops or spoke about is using it with clients as well as a yes, no, maybe list, where you both sit down separately and work out your yeses, your noses, and your maybes.

And even the maybes can be, or the nose can be soft nose and hard nose. Like I'm kind of not being, I'm not totally up for being fisted at the moment, but I may well be in the future.

Or I don't really want to be peed on, but I might be open to it and I will definitely not want caviar, just champagne. You can see it took a moment. So yes no, yes no maybe list.

And it's about, so in your case, when this guy was like I'd like all of this on the menu, it's okay, well let me think about that. Or well I'm not up for doing that at the moment, but it's really good to know that.

And as Carrie does, she comes back with some alternative suggestions. Like maybe leaving the door open while he goes for a wee.

But I'm very curious, what do you think it is about some powerful men that tend to be very drawn to being the submissive ones in sex scenarios or maybe do things that are seen as humiliating during sex?

Yeah, I mean, that's such a trope, isn't it, that powerful, powerful men enjoy going, enjoy domination, enjoy being a submissive and definitely one, because I own dungeons as well, and I think for the private, the professional sessions which are used

in that space, it is for the most part female domination and male, well, male submissive anyway, that is a majority. And I don't know if it's because women are more likely to get that or if they ask for it, without having to resort to a professional.

I think that's more it. The fact that women, yeah.

But there's still an element of power then, because ultimately even in the submissive, you know, everything stops the moment you say no. Everything stops the moment you don't want anything and nothing happens unless you want it to happen.

So it can seem like submission, but it's not properly, you know, they're still the ones that get the wad of cash out at the end of the session.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, they're the one finding somebody and, you know, choosing what they do and don't want and can sometimes definitely show their power as well in that situation. You know, there is, you know, there's different dynamics going on.

But I think also, I think, you know, the patriarchy says that men are the ones who have to be dominant all the whole time. And I think being yourself and trying different things is quite liberating for anyone to break out of a mold.

So my idea about that is changing a little bit. Like, why wouldn't you want to try something else?

Yeah. I mean, I find it fascinating, but I do find very fascinating the point you brought about them still being the ones in control because they go and pay for it and they choose to and they can choose to opt out at any given time.

But obviously after that, Carrie has to spill the beans and she's talking about all of that with her girlfriends and they're all chiming in about it like, just do it, don't do it, like I feel like I want to pee on a guy and like he didn't even

realize. And that's when Charlotte decides to invite all of them to this kind of like discarded dates party that she got the idea from, from the guy that she had met at the fundraiser party.

What do you think about this party concept of bringing people who you're not interested in?

I think it's fantastic. I think it's such a good idea.

And I think the, you know, what we were talking about at the beginning, about a little bit of evaluation that happens at the beginning when you start dating somebody, we first start talking to somebody, you know, often the first one is, you know, are

they a murderer? You know, are they a murderer of like animals or are they like semi-safe? And I think if they're an ex and a lot of that, a lot of boxes have already been ticked for you. So I think it's brilliant.

They're going to be partly well formed human beings and, you know, they're going to have something about them, which meant that your friends dated them. So I think that's such a great idea.

I agree. I was thinking, no, I was thinking, maybe I should throw that party because I've only been invited to bring a single friend party and it was for gay men. So listen, I had a blast, but like no luck.

But then we go to Charlotte's party, Carrie brings Stanford, Samantha brings the short guy, and Miranda makes sure that she is not missing on anything better if she does decide to shack up with Steve, and this is when Charlotte meets a guy that she

is super interested in. Again, looks like a plain vanilla guy, but like good enough for her to be like, yep, could be my husband.

And they're really hitting it off when the woman that brought this guy realizes that Charlotte is interested in him, and then she's like, claims him back, repose the guy.

So what do you think, as a therapist, is this thing about us wanting things more when we cannot have them?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's such a natural thing, isn't it? The grass is greener on the other side.

Well, I think, I think what this is also is an element of seeing somebody through the eyes of someone else, you know, where we can get focused on the little things which are annoying or not a plus point and, you know, can work both ways when you meet

somebody new and you introduce them to all of your friends and they're all going, oh my god, he's great. You know, there's a little bit of that in it as well.

You know, you're seeing them through their eyes and so I think that's what that is, you know. She's like, oh, you know, we split up because whatever reasons, you know, he didn't trash out or whatever. And now she's like, actually, who cares?

He's a great catch. And I was focusing on this negative thing and through someone else's eyes, I can actually see that that is a whole load of green flags. Let's go.

So I think there's there's maybe a little bit of that about it. But yeah, humans are greedy. We always want what's best, don't we?

We want more.

Yeah, that is true. Like sometimes I go to a buffet and there's plenty of something. I'm like, oh, this is just fine.

But like if there's just one prawn left, no matter how like expired it looks, I'm like, I really wanted prawns.

But then the whole episode comes to a bit of an end where Sam, decides to give the short guy a chance and like she really enjoys herself and like even though she has trouble making peace with the fact that he's so short, they end up dating for two

weeks, which is kind of a record for her. Miranda and Steve get back together because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters in the pros and cons list is the fact that Steve loves her and she loves him.

So they get back together and Carrie finally has that conversation with Bill, where she's like, I've been thinking about it. It's not for me.

I think it's great that you like that, but maybe you could close your eyes and I could get some warm tea down your leg. And eventually, if we get serious, I could leave the door open. And Bill is such a dick about this.

And he's like, oh, by the way, yeah, somebody from the campaign decided that you talk about sex too much, so we should break up. And Carrie does tell it all in her column saying like the handsome politico asked her to pee on him. She said no.

So what do you think about the way that Carrie handled the whole thing?

So are we talking about the writing up of it afterwards?

I am talking about how she handled that conversation where she was like, I cannot do it, but this is what I'm willing to offer. But I'm very curious to know what you think about writing about it.

So I think the way that she handled it by offering alternatives and suggestions was really, really cute, really cute. So great, good on Carrie. That's a little bit of a compromise.

Well, I wouldn't like this, but maybe you could watch me. The way that she wrote about it, I thought was so juvenile and bitchy and I loved it. And I would do that in a heartbeat and he deserved it.

I love that.

It was brilliant.

I love that.

Because I was like, oh, it's petty, but it's kind of like, fair enough. Because she does say like, I may write about sex, but you like to be peed on. And he was like, yeah, but nobody knows about it until they do.

It's fantastic.

I mean, he was, you know, the, I mean, he was so superficial in the first instance, you know, just for the, you know, one of the media team to be like, actually, this isn't a good idea. You shouldn't go out with this girl. It's just ridiculous.

So you definitely deserved it for that. But you know, there's, you know, the Twitter account of like, am I the asshole?

No.

Where people, where people, it's A-I-T-A or X.

Yeah.

And it's, am I the asshole? And people recount a story and go like, who was right? Am I the asshole?

And people respond going, yes, you're the asshole. Or E-S-H, everyone's shit. And I think in this example, everyone was shit.

They all deserved it.

I love that. Okay. So this catapults me into the last bit of the episodes where I asked you to give advice to the girls.

And for Carrie, knowing that, hey, you know, she did right by writing about it.

But like, I'm very curious how you would maybe coach a client to navigate your partner's kinks and how to maybe tread that line between compromise, but also making sure that you stay true to your boundaries.

Well, she does it great, you know, where she's really open to stuff as well. And I think Yes, No, Maybe List is a great place to start. And I think it helps to be open minded.

I mean, people, you know, people are all different. So for some people, that's like completely alien, you know, the idea of peeing on somebody.

But for some people, it might be like, yeah, cool, as long as you're not pissing on me and I'm pissing on you, like, whatever, let's give it a go. I can do that. Maybe that was the part that showed it was when the episodes aired and the data despic.

So I think that these days, people might be slightly more open than that to try different things.

I mean, if you pee in the shower by yourself, you're like 70% there. And I think 70% of the population does it. And the other 30% is lying.

And I think even to let somebody watch you, I think people are a bit more adventurous these days, should we say.

Nothing wrong with it. You're not, by the way. But I think generally people are.

So I think people are slightly more open to trying different things. The way that Carrie is bound to read with herself, and that's the most important thing, and she knows her boundaries. So that's what matters.

So she's got that spot on. What I might say is actually, she's also displaying her own elements of superficiality when she was like, I get to be my Jackie O, and I get this, and I'm dressing up for this.

There was a certain element where she liked the power and the thing as well. So if you don't want to find yourself going out with somebody who's superficial, then maybe you shouldn't be quite so superficial yourself. Sorry, KK.

No, I like that, Reed.

Okay, what about Samantha? How do you think that you can let someone down gently, especially when it's about something as impolitically correct or as vain as hype can be?

Because I'm very tall, and for me, it's kind of a deal breaker, but I don't know how to address it.

To Samantha, I would say, don't change, girl, don't change. I mean, I thought the way that she said it, I mean, it does jar a little bit, but she was open. She didn't discriminate against, you know, she said, I normally, you're too short.

I like tall guys, but she still had sex with him, you know, and actually was-

I was very sexual.

Yeah. So, you know, she was still like, actually, you might be sure, but he's still got big dick energy, and the attraction was still there, you know, made her laugh.

Even in the restaurant, you know, it still wasn't actually you're just short, it's just where you shop. And, you know, and that's what I thought was nice.

It kind of left it from being too personal, because for those, like, you know, you can't be buying children's clothes. But then, you know, they have that great exchange. Oh my God, what to do?

I think the way, yeah, the way that he came back from her saying, like, you shop at the kids' department.

I don't think so.

Yeah, like, that was, like, even more of a turn on us, like, than him buying the most expensive adult-sized clothes.

Where do you shop?

Is it the Tall Leggy Whore Shop store?

Yeah. Love that.

Something like that. Okay.

I'm curious to know what you thought about Miranda in this episode, because I'm kind of like, okay, if you have to do a pros and cons list for somebody who's your ex-boyfriend, so you know him quite well, you've also tried to be friends with him

because that's how much you think of him. But also you want to make sure that there's nothing better out there before you go back to this relationship. Please take the floor. What do you think?

Again, everyone's getting quite a good deal with this one with me, I think.

So I think with Miranda, I think the thing that was missing is that she hadn't heard the depth of his feelings. You know, it was all, he can be like this, he can be like that, he's not like this, he's not like that.

But when it came to it, when he actually said, you know, you are my world, that's what love is. That's what matters and she hadn't heard, she hadn't heard that before. So that was the thing that was missing.

So had she, you know, it happened organically.

And I think, I think actually that experience is many people's experience where they go along and you know, and it's like, and then something happens that can only happen after a certain amount of time when, you know, and then it's like, okay, yeah,

Yeah, I mean, because I had to watch this episode over and over again for like your notes, my notes, the notes.

I love that this relationship was like the successful one because they gave away their power. Steve kind of like puts all his cards on the table and he's like, I'm into you. I want to date you, just you exclusively.

I only want to be with you. And I love that for the writers of the show and for Miranda. But then finally for Charlotte, how do you think you can enjoy dating when you have such a rigid agenda of like your endgame?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, that's a shame. I think relationships and love is a journey.

We don't know where it ends. My advice to Charlotte is open your mind and enjoy the journey. Enjoy the journey, enjoy yourself, have some fun.

And if my memory serves me correctly, I think she does do that in later seasons or episodes. Does she?

I mean, she meets Trey this, like a few episodes down the line in this season and they don't even have sex before they decide to get married. And then that blows up in her face.

And then yes, she kind of like steps outside of her baseline a little bit by kissing the gardener, then making out with her, quote unquote, ugly lawyer, sweaty, whatever. And then I feel like that's when she starts having fun.

She gets there in the end, but in this one, let your hair down, girl. Have some fun.

Have some fun.

Enjoy the journey and give people a chance as well.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like she gave everyone a chance. It's like, you're brunette, you're tall, you're not a murderer.

Good enough.

Yeah. And I think rigidity is not a super attractive quality to everyone as well, but she gets there in the end, so it's all right.

She does.

But that's the episode, Calandra, and I'd love for you to maybe tell our listeners a bit more about what Killing Kittens is cooking in the books, what you're doing as well, because I know Killing Kittens has been around for over 20 years, but it's

Yeah, yeah, it is.

It's brilliant. So Killing Kittens, thank you as well. So Killing Kittens has been known for their sex parties, you know, 20, I think it's actually 25 years ago.

But 25 years ago, known for these very high-end sex parties, so it used to be, you know, celebrities will list all the come, everyone signs an NDA when they get their ticket.

But it was very, very groundbreaking then, you know, very, always in the papers and stuff, it was like, oh my god, a sex party. But now, but now it's a bit more acceptable.

And, you know, there are a global brand, so they have parties all over the world. But yeah, it's moving in a different direction of more tailored experiences.

So they've got workshops, weekend workshops and really beautiful manor houses, really amazing settings with cabaret dinners and parties in the evenings and a great roto timetable of all different types of workshops, from naked glow painting to penis

massage to kink 101 to handling your jealousy and polyamory. So loads of different workshops across the board. But what's really exciting is they've got a series of cruises coming up.

So these are, the next one is in June, which is going along the Riviera. Which is going to France and Italy, Spain. On a small cruise ship, they're quite intimate.

And that's just going to be a ball, absolute ball.

You're going on to that one, is it? Or are you still to be confirmed? Yeah, I think that sounds amazing.

Yeah, but there are some other ones in...

There's some other ones in the pipeline, so I think there's going to be a Monaco Formula 1 cruise. There's one in Singapore, going around Singapore and various islands around there.

And yeah, so there's some really good things, including they have an O2 members-only box at the O2 arena.

How fun.

So you can go and see a great concert, but also meet a few people, not having sex there, just me to mingle. But it's the idea of the focus is away from sex.

I mean, I'm sure sex is on the menu somewhere, but mingling and having a sexy time, but also an enriched experience at the same time.

Amazing. I'll pop all the information. You're going to have to come Isabel.

We want this close, but I'll pop all the information on the show notes, because I do think that like it's been around for this long with this very good reputation for a reason. So I invite people to check it out.

Yeah. See you there, darling.

Thank you so much, Calandra.

Lovely. Thank you so much, Isabel. It's been a lot of fun.

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of And Just Like That We Found Therapy.

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